Metal

[Elite]

aye and all the bands u like never listened to music before they started playing and so were never influenced by anyone. They are also not human and so do not want to be like their idols.

i suppose its personal preference id much rather listen to any of the other albums than cowboys.

saying they played music that was beneath them is a load of shite to be fair. Do u write a riff, like it then think 'hey this is pish easy to play, so even tho everyones telling me its fucking amazing im gonna scrap it' ?

i know i dont.

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Elite

aye and all the bands u like never listened to music before they started playing and so were never influenced by anyone. They are also not human and so do not want to be like their idols.

i suppose its personal preference id much rather listen to any of the other albums than cowboys.

saying they played music that was beneath them is a load of shite to be fair. Do u write a riff, like it then think 'hey this is pish easy to play, so even tho everyones telling me its fucking amazing im gonna scrap it' ?

i know i dont.

It's not shite at all: watch any videos of Dime playing his solos from before '90 and he was FAR better than he was following Cowboys, Phil was actually a pretty good singer in that he could hit notes and Vinnie didn't have that God-awful overly triggered drum sound.

As for me, it's not really applicable as I rarely have to write riffs anymore not being in a full time band and all but if I write a riff that isn't conducive to the sound I want and/or is overly simple then I'll drop it. In recent times, I've tended to drop all the riffs I write on my own in favour of riffs I come up with on the spot with a drummer for some reason.

And the bands I listen to are majorly influenced by other bands but they wouldn't get their singer to change his vocal style and totally jump genre as soon as they heard a demo that made them shit their pants. I mean, look at Pantera circa '88 with hair the size of the Seers Tower and enough make-up to make Margaret Thatcher look like a whore then at Pantera V.2 with their un-kempt Grunge-ish look and buggared up sound.

It's weird really, two years made the Pantera guys realize that Converse Allstars were somehow better than pointy-toed cowboy boots, that not washing was better than looking like a hooker and that totally denying the fact that they were a Hair Metal band was a good idea.

Mind you, Alice 'n' Chains did pretty much the same thing...

[Elite]

he was not far better as he was the same person he simply chose at some points to not play as wanky solos as he did on cowboys.

your basing your argument like i say on personal preference. saying a triggered drum sound is 'god awful' is daft cos some ppl like it.

obviously anyone would scrap a riff that didnt sound like what they were aiming for but droping a riff that is simple because it is simple is probably the most stupid thing ive ever heard, musically, and just in general.

and much as its cool to bash established bands these days for 'selling out'. Could pantera have thought 'hey thats cool as fuck we should do stuff like that?' then done it for the remainder of their career? Aye cos thats what happened. yes they changed their sound and image but did they ever do it again?

why is it that ppl expect bands to create the same album again and again? For me that would be boring as fuck but i have vaired taste i guess.

[Macho_Amok]

Iv not been keepin much tabs on this thread lately but found some points raised recently interesting. I think Elite seems to have a bit of a point here with the pantera issue. As far as im concerned theres nothin wrong with movin with the times, its not a case of 'selling out' but a wise descision if a band is to suceed in an ever changing music scene. Fair enough, dont jump form one exteme to another, but if Pantera were still doin cowboys stuff all there days they would'nt have risen to the stature they acheived cause by that time as you said Ian, things such as grunge was on the up - so who (exept for die hard fans) are goin to buy up there records?

It was ok back in the day for bands like Metallica and whatnot to produce records that were deadly similar becuase that was big at the time, but with the rise of grunge music changed, some say it wrecked it, but it showed that you didnt have to be a virtuoso musician to play in a band and succeed. Granted, alot of guff did follow as a result, but it brought variation to 'alternative' music.

Back to Pantera, lol, i personally think that Cowboys is there best cd, but its ridiculous to slate post cowboys stuff. Ask 99.9% of Pantera fans and there likely to say that Vulgar is an essential buy, whilst Far beyond driven went staight to the us number 1 in the billboard charts did it not ? Bad music, doesnt seem that way to the masses. Pantera should have been the blueprint for the likes of 'talica when they made their newer material casue they showed how a steady progression in style can help you reach a more varied crowd. They stayed true to their roots but put a modern spin on things, wereas metallica went on to make some half arsed shite, most notably 'St. Anger'.

And its actually only Phil who denys the hair band thing, interviews with the dime and vinnie have had numerous comments on their past as a band and they said it was only Phil who tryed to hide it (read the metal hammer issue with the vinnie interview). I know im bound to be reminded about the timelessness of 80's bands like testament, thrax, etc etc but to that i say YES, the tunes ARE timeless and they are fuckin quality!, however thats partly becasue they had a fruitful period in music. Thrash and associated styles were dominant for, well i dont know for sure, but i'l hazard a guess at say about 8 years or so straight thru the 80's, bascily the whole of the 80's. However music is ever changing and styles come and go, its dog eat dog now. Nu metal - lasted all of 2years - 3 max! Thats an example of it, bands like linkin park are done for now, were the hell did papa roach go? and who can remember korn??? Last year Emo was the best thing since slided bread, now its 'harcore', you need to strike a balance, dont just go with the flow and change, do what your doin and stick to it, but a slight change here and there helps, as i said pantera done it and it sure as hell worked i'd say.

Anyways, strike all that -AMOK WILL BRING THRASH BACK TO THE MASSES!!!! ......but im not for wearin skin tight jeans

[keith_helli]

Originally Posted by Aki

Charlie Benante writes most of Anthrax's riffs, always has.

Bad song on an otherwise good album.

yeah i thought that to but i recently read an interview with bello and he said that it was a combo of him Ian and Spitz. I know charlie wrote most of the solos for SOWN

lol ive got a feeling this is going to be a long thread. I really like cowboys great album. i prefer power metal and projects a bit better. i think phil is a really good singer during those albums tho he is best in Down i think. Has hyder will tell you terrence lee owns lol. The post cowboys stuff doesnt excite me anymore like it used to, stuff like walk and fucking hostile. before i start im not going to say that pantera are shite cos that is a bit silly cos hunners of people like em and they do have some amazing riffs nobody can deny that ie im broken, 5 minutes alone. Stuff off the great southern trend kill came on my mp3 player came on i thought it was god awful, probably cos of phils singing moved it on and strength beyong strength came on and i hated it. I dunno whats happeing cos i used to like that stuff. i think its just from listening to heathen and stuff that i kinda feel thrash riffs in E are more interesting to me. listen to Killers its a braw pantera song anyway thats my opinion on the matter

[ARGaz]

I really think that all this Pantera bashing fae Keith and Callum is a bit stupid, I mean we were hangin out at parties and shit literally about a year/ a year and a half ago and you guys were bangin on on about how Pantera were the greatest band of all time etc (Ian wasnt, he has been fairly against them since i met him). What made you hate it so quickly? Is it possibly coz its the cool thing to do in the thrash scene?

[keith_helli]

I dont mean to come across bashing them as such. thats not what i was trying to say. ive just moved away from that kinda metal. I think phil has become a bit of a goon as well, especially with his recent comments about his back problem and that. I think its in relation to meeting metal iain a couple of years ago who has opened us up to tons of thrash bands that id never think id get to hear due to them being out of print and extremly rare to get hold off. i just find them more exciting. I mean i listen to like heathen or abbattoir and then stick on walk and it just seems a bit slow n boring. I guess im just not a fan of big slow chunky riffs that much anymore. I find it hard to listen to really screaming growly singing as well that was on the latter albums. seems dumb when he can actually sing. But yeah you are right i did used to love them so it would be hypocritical of me to sit here and say that they are absolute pish. I mean you remember that time in Jims when we put Im Broken on the jukebox on repeat for like and hour and half lol that was a gid yin

[ARGaz]

Originally Posted by keith_helli

remember that time in Jims when we put Im Broken on the jukebox on repeat for like and hour and half lol that was a gid yin

That could have been a number of times, haha!!! I think the best Pantera/Jims event was the time we almost got chucked oot coz Greg was up on the table doin an Angus Young impression while Macho was pukin everywhere and we stole a jumper, was class!!!!

[amoriffer]

Originally Posted by ARGaz

I really think that all this Pantera bashing fae Keith and Callum is a bit stupid, I mean we were hangin out at parties and shit literally about a year/ a year and a half ago and you guys were bangin on on about how Pantera were the greatest band of all time etc (Ian wasnt, he has been fairly against them since i met him). What made you hate it so quickly? Is it possibly coz its the cool thing to do in the thrash scene?

i know what ye mean man, and i agree with Keith, its because my eyes have been opened to about 40 or 50 new thrash bands that i rate in a different league from them, so when i listen back to them, im not into them as much as i was, when they come on im not gona turn round and say get that shite off ye know, haha, aye i mind machos legs were like rubber dragging along the ground, and he kept sayin 'smoke weed' whilst almost unconcious, we had a to bribe a taxi driver to take us home haha! those were the days, i reckon we should get a pish up soon!!

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Elite

he was not far better as he was the same person he simply chose at some points to not play as wanky solos as he did on cowboys.

your basing your argument like i say on personal preference. saying a triggered drum sound is 'god awful' is daft cos some ppl like it.

obviously anyone would scrap a riff that didnt sound like what they were aiming for but droping a riff that is simple because it is simple is probably the most stupid thing ive ever heard, musically, and just in general.

and much as its cool to bash established bands these days for 'selling out'. Could pantera have thought 'hey thats cool as fuck we should do stuff like that?' then done it for the remainder of their career? Aye cos thats what happened. yes they changed their sound and image but did they ever do it again?

why is it that ppl expect bands to create the same album again and again? For me that would be boring as fuck but i have vaired taste i guess.

I do believe Dime just got a bit sloppy after Cowboys. He did some cracking solos (Mouth for War) but, I don't care who you are, being drunk all the time will affect your ability to play.

When I say a simple riff I mean that it has too much of a groove or the rhythm doesn't fit with the song. I don't really like pedestrian riffs and prefer to have to actually work to play the riffs I write either because they clock in at 210bpm or just being they are tricky to play.

Pantera did keep a similar look running through-out the '90s but, yeah, their music did change... for the worse. I find it funny if I hear TGSTK when Phil talks about music cricits and how the trend is dead when Pantera were, pretty much, the trend-setters in '90s Metal. Mind you, the '90s were a fairly shite time for Metal so it's commendable that Pantera managed to stay afloat.

People don't expect the same album again and again but they do expect consistently brilliant music and don't expect a band the jump genre. Power Metal ended up selling about 30 000 copies in Texas alone so their die hard fans must have been a bit surprized when they saw Pantera playing stuff like Primal Concrete Sledge.

[hyder.]

I stopped liking post-cowboys Pantera os much not because of my increased interest in Thrash. All that happened is that I heard the pre-cowboys stuff and thoguht' Fuck, this shit is way better'

Projects in the Jungle is their best album! Should have never got rid of Terrence Lee.

[Elite]

ffs dime was not drunk all the time. obviously it was shown on the dvds and film clips etc cos it appeals to people who think that that sort of shit is cool or 'rock n roll' ayone who was pished as much as everyone makes him out to have been would have developed visible features of this lifestyle. eg blood vessels close to the srface of the skin around the face and especially nose area, lack of energy, (insert all the other symptoms of alcholism) did he show any of these symptoms? no. Alchol to the excess that you are talking would seriously depress someone yet he was always a pretty happy looking guy.

again about the riffs i enjoy a challanging riff 2 and my band all hate me when i come up with new ones cos im always all over the fretboard (im no guitar god by any manner of means)

panteras sound, like macho amok says, moved with the times but you could always hear the similarity to the album before it. the only majour change they made was the one you seem to be so obsessed with damning them for.

seeing macho amok plugged his gig im puggin ours you may have noticed my sig

Hypocrisy wednesday 15th feb buy tickets from ME and go early to see some bowel movingly heavy metal. or see us at the barfly on the 31st jan :P

yes im a cheeky bastard plugging in someone elses forum

[sandyARG]

to be honest you'll disregard a band i like because youve heard one or two tunes you didnt like, so why shouldnt i completely disregard anthrax after hearing 'safe home' and 'taking the music gaywards'.

Theres nae point in arguin this about pantera, you's have drastically switched your opinion on the subject, but its fair enough you guys think what you think and we think what we think.











p.s. still no changin ma sig!!!!

[Jam]

As with regards to Pantera, though it is trendy to like them given Dimbags killing and all that, I still rate them as highly as I used. Cowboys, Arise & Kill em All were the 1st metal albums I owned so I can't really turn my back on them as they were all a huge influence. Saying that these days I do prefer Exhorder but I don't think you need to say Exhorder OR Pantera, I say enjoy both contributions to thrash!

to be honest you'll disregard a band i like because youve heard one or two tunes you didnt like

I'm actually quite interested in seeing which bands get the thumbs up in the ARG wacky world o weirdness. I'm guessing FNM is a big one and they're a quality band, but who else?

[Aki]

Originally Posted by Elite

ffs dime was not drunk all the time. obviously it was shown on the dvds and film clips etc cos it appeals to people who think that that sort of shit is cool or 'rock n roll' ayone who was pished as much as everyone makes him out to have been would have developed visible features of this lifestyle. eg blood vessels close to the srface of the skin around the face and especially nose area, lack of energy, (insert all the other symptoms of alcholism) did he show any of these symptoms? no. Alchol to the excess that you are talking would seriously depress someone yet he was always a pretty happy looking guy.

panteras sound, like macho amok says, moved with the times but you could always hear the similarity to the album before it. the only majour change they made was the one you seem to be so obsessed with damning them for.

He did develop physical features that are conducive to alcoholism, he became a fat, sweaty bastard with a rack.

Before:

Dimebag circa 1990

After:

Dimebag circa 2003

In the second picture he's beginning to like Gene Hoglan!

I wouldn't say Pantera's albums had much in common soundwise especially with The Great Southern Trendkill: there weren't any songs like Walk or Fucking Hostile on Cowboys, there weren't any song like Suicide Note pt. II on FBD and then Reinventing the Steel sounding quite different to them all.