Hardcore today

[metallideth]

Originally Posted by TGO

From what I've read, none of these bands were doing anything other than reacting to their environment. Growing up in NYC in the 80s, there was a natural reaction to be angry and lash out at their circumstances and their relative poverty to the upper classes around them. Maybe they weren't as "clever" as some stuck-up student being educated by other people and calling it knowledge, but I have more respect for what they did than anything else. I think this original hardcore scene is untouchable today, except the current Eastern European scene where poverty and neglect is still a widespread issue and has lots of bands going on and on about the direct affect of our greedy, capitalist actions on them. Most of these early bands actually had reasons to be shouting their lungs out, to be angry and to be playing the music they did. This music was not commercial then, it had no prospects of being stadium rock or making a career out of it. I really don't give a shit that they were not DIY or had any interest in it, because that shit was real and passionate. The way you describe them at times is a bit embarassing, and maybe attitudes like this were the reason they were punching the lights out of the rich upper classes (as well as each other).

I don't like the macho alienating nature of the scene, nor do I like the music, but coming from a similar council estate background I can really appreciate the injustices you feel and the animosity that is there for people who've been born with a better hand than you. The streets are violent and so a lot of people would have been rashly violent and short-tempered. These days it's just a bunch of muppets reacting to dull hardcore with no soul and they deserved to be laughed at.

Edit - Oh and I'm not condoning any dodgy fascist politics or militant beatings, just trying to say that back then maybe they had a reason to be acting so stupid - schools and prospects aren't exactly the best in poor urban environments.

In retrospect, perhaps my original post was a bit too judgemental in its language. I definitely agree with you, it would have been extremely difficult for the kids in NY to have turned out the same as the ones in DC simply because of their social situation. However, I don't think it's classist or elitist to say that their politics (whether they were aware of them or not) were a bit dubious and not really much of an alternative to anything, which is what I assumed hardcore was about creating. Where the music was angry, it always seemed a bit directionless - there's nothing wrong with a statement like "don't tell me how to run my life", but say it too many times and it just becomes abstract. Still, I did make the point that this can't really be faulted on an artistic level, because it is, like you say, an adequate expression of the frustration that they'd doubtless have felt growing up where they did.

Please don't be embarassed by what I say though, I'm only speaking for myself here! I also didn't say they were "punching the lights out of the rich upper classes", rather just anyone who stepped on their toes. And d'you know what? That's nigh on inevitable. I know as well as you do that some champagne socialist is going to get the piss ripped out of him (at the very least) if he walks into a ghetto or a council estate delivering sermons on the labour theory of value, the importance of Hegel's dialectics and so on. It's in that same way that I don't expect the NY kids to suddenly pick up and say "yeah, let's get organised" in the way the DC kids did because the whole thing was pretty alien to a lot of them.

The NY kids were not and are not "bad" people, just like the NY scene was not totally devoid of DIY activities, autonomous centres, politicised bands and so on. However, the problem we have nowadays in hardcore is that a lot of bands and kids are still latching on to the things that were shouted out from the streets of Brooklyn 25 years ago, and defining hardcore by these words ; both you and I can surely agree that these words could only come from the very situation they came from, nowhere else, and as such are abstract and meaningless when taken out of context. Even a lot of the early bands and original "scene players" that are still active have ended up like this, just totally caught up in self-parody.

I think I've just spent a lot of time elaborating on something which was probably down to me not communicating one point very well. In reading back at your posts, I think we've made very similar, if not the same, points on the matter. You can berate me at The Now Denial gig if you wish to continue this further, otherwise I think it's going to keep both of us off the studying for the forseeable future.

[sinister]

Originally Posted by TGO

you are one of the most fervently annoying people

Haha, thanks, I must be doing something right.

in terms of telling emo/screamo/etc. bands that it doesn't matter where their roots are "you aren't hardcore"

I've never said their roots don't matter and don't deny that some emo/screamo type bands definitely have h/c influences (there are even some on your "what is emo" link ). But being influenced by h/c doesn't in itself make a h/c band, when musically and lyrically they've moved on to develop a new style which leaves all the original aggression, frustration and alienation far behind. This is the point the guy I quoted is making.

Just a wee example... Yngwie Malmsteen is obviously very heavily influenced by the baroque classical style and it's fair to say the roots of a lot of his music are based there, but that doesn't mean for a second that's he's actually playing classical music when he's obviously a rock/metal musician.

Metallica were not the first Thrash Metal band,

Who said they were? The guy only mentioned them 'cause the Atreyu dude did.

but Venom and Slayer had their demos and first releases out before Metallica did and were still playing fast as fuck thrash

Hmmm... check your dates, the demos I don't know about (just a little before my time) but Kill 'em all was out a few months before Show no mercy (and even longer if you count the euro release). Venom were undoubtedly very influential on early thrash, but at the time were never really considered a thrash band, they called themselves "black metal" and definintely didn't play any "fast as fuck thrash". If you check out their "From hell to the unknown" album from '85 there's a radio interview on the end where they're actually slagging metallica for playing "chugga, chugga thrash".

but I still fail to see why any band should have to pay them respects

That's the problem... the reasons are there, you just fail to see them.

AF ended up putting stuff out on Epitaph.. how are they any better than bands like Atreyu and Bleeding Through?

Check out what bands like AF and SOIA have been doing for the last 20 years, go read some lyrics, and if you still can't work it out then I can't help you.

have as little to be screaming and shouting about as rich white suburban kids.

Buy some proper h/c CD's, read some lyric sheets... there's still plenty to shout about today.

[Densu]

Skimmed past all this stuff. I think its good tha we have a Glasgow scene now because we actully get to see some class bands and that now but i dont dig this emo-metal fusion thats all of a sudden hardcore.

Its like most of these bands legit have no hardcore ethics which i think its 100% of what hardcore means to me. I dont want to hear bit giant 'intellectual' lyrics over some overly metal song with a beat down. Thats just not hardcore to me. Hardcore to me is Punk And Metal fused.

This is why I legit goto no shows ever now because its just all metal kids proclaming they are the most 'hardcore' cunts around because they goto every show in Glasgow.

I'd rather be DIY in my house and listen to Bad Brains.

[sinister]

Originally Posted by Densu

I'd rather be DIY in my house and listen to Bad Brains.

Hahahahaha, best line of the thread, right there.

(BTW ask your dad to give me a call on monday and we'll go for lunch next week, I ain't seen him for ages! )

[Densu]

Originally Posted by sinister

Hahahahaha, best line of the thread, right there.

(BTW ask your dad to give me a call on monday and we'll go for lunch next week, I ain't seen him for ages! )

No problemo he's just back from London today soon.
:-)

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

I like Iron Monkey, but I do not like Black Sabbath one bit.

Does that make me a "clueless cunt"? No, I don't believe so.

[metallideth]

It makes you a lesser human being. Sabbath fukkin' rule!

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

Never liked em.
I dunno what it is, Ozzys voice, the mid pace songs, the lack of heavyness (not to say I only like heavy bands because its blatantly not true) but sabbath always seemed to have something missing.

I think Iron Monkey stole their style and made it what it should be. Fucking mint!

[Densu]

Actully Iron Monkey just ripped of Eye Hate God TBH Who ripped of Sabbath.

TBH Sabbath are heavy as fuck for a 70's band FFS.

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

in the 70's they might have been relativly heavy compared to the other bands they were surrounded with back then, but Im sorry mate I grew up in the 90's/00's and its jsut not my bag at all.

I like Iron Monkey because Morrows Voice is one the sickest things ive ever heard, music was heavy as hell, and groovy. I just loved it, Sabbath done nothing for me although I APPRECIATE that Iron Monkey wouldnt have existed if it wasnt for sabbath and so forth.

[Densu]

Yep.

[oopemoscreamo]

Originally Posted by AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS

I like Iron Monkey, but I do not like Black Sabbath one bit.

Does that make me a "clueless cunt"? No, I don't believe so.

it would seem that you like one band because you should rather than appreciating them for what they are.

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

Steve, you KNOW thats bollocks.

I like Iron Monkey - cause, well I do! They are more pleasing to my ears than Black Sabbath.
Thats about the size of it.

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

Its also worth noting that I dont know one single other person who likes Iron Monkey and HATES black sabbath.

So I fail too see what trend Im supposed to be following, prick. :P