The Orange Walk

[Warlord]

Originally Posted by Zooropa

My religion doesn't matter, I just want to hear from the horses mouth as it were what it's actually for and if my pre-concieved ideas are way off the mark.

Fair doos.

Well when I marched it was for being proud a Protestant, proud to be Scottish and proud to be British. That's what my lodge marched for.

[endless psych]

Originally Posted by Zooropa

My religion doesn't matter, I just want to hear from the horses mouth as it were what it's actually for and if my pre-concieved ideas are way off the mark.

You know I suspect that the reasons and rationale behind the walks have been lost over time the longer they have been running. So every generation probably has their own spin on them which depends on the conventions of the time.

[Warlord]

Originally Posted by endless psych

You know I suspect that the reasons and rationale behind the walks have been lost over time the longer they have been running. So every generation probably has their own spin on them which depends on the conventions of the time.

Far as I know, in my whole family, dad, granddad, great granddad it's always been the same. Just be proud of who you are.

[djtoast]

Originally Posted by Warlord

OK, a different scenario. Read ages ago that a guy almost got lifted if he didn't take off his Wildhearts t-shirt that said "Bigger Than Jesus, Louder Than God". What's worse?

The Bobby Sands T-shirt is more likely to inflame violence, the Wildhearts one is more likely just to offend vicars and old ladies who drink tea after the sunday morning service, and they don't riot often.

But it's crazy saying someone shouldn't be allowed to wear either I think... Bobby Sands is an emotive figure but just the mention of him on a T-shirt or anywhere shouldn't be banned, it's pointless. (*Takes a breath*) - As a protestant I don't see him as a symbol to be feared for Republicanism, I think he was an idiot for killing himself over a comparatively minor issue; I'm sure it strengthened Margaret Thatcher's resolve and the current situation undoubtedly came about despite, not because of, the actions of people like him.

So anyone who waved the image of Bobby Sands in my face would be wasting their time...

Just as anyone who celebrates killing catholics at the Boyne earns my contempt.

[LesMTS]

Originally Posted by Warlord

Far as I know, in my whole family, dad, granddad, great granddad it's always been the same. Just be proud of who you are.

Being proud of who you are and rubbing it in people's faces are not the same thing.

[nevali]

Originally Posted by Warlord

Ask the council why the Walks don't go to a venue. The Council permit the Walks to go on, then it's confirmed by police if they think it's a route which won't cause any distubance like say for instance a Chapel giving away biscuits.

Here, wait a sec.

The council didn't come up with the idea of marching; just because they permit it doesn't mean they're supposed to be the focal point. The council aren't the ones marching. Saying “ask the council why the walks don't go to a venue”*is a bit like saying “ask my car why I drive to work on Paisley Road West instead of taking the M8”.

What would the lodges actually say if the council said “you know what? naw. not this year”? I bet there'd be bitching and moaning a-plenty. And why is the response to anybody who wants to know from people involved why they can't just do it somewhere away from… well, folk who want to get on with their normal lives without it being interrupted by the walks… “go and ask the council”?

[endless psych]

Originally Posted by Warlord

Far as I know, in my whole family, dad, granddad, great granddad it's always been the same. Just be proud of who you are.

You see thats the problem with rationale for these sorts of things peoples reasons can change but when they look back they don't. (I dunno if I've put that very well). Bascially when people look back at the past they never look through the same eyes. So peoples memories are coloured and affected, altered most likely, by the person they are when they recall them.

Which is probably why people look back at things they did and think "Did I really do that?" or "What on Earth possesed me?" etc, etc.

[Warlord]

Originally Posted by djtoast

The Bobby Sands T-shirt is more likely to inflame violence, the Wildhearts one is more likely just to offend vicars and old ladies who drink tea after the sunday morning service, and they don't riot often.

But it's crazy saying someone shouldn't be allowed to wear either I think... Bobby Sands is an emotive figure but just the mention of him on a T-shirt or anywhere shouldn't be banned, it's pointless. (*Takes a breath*) - As a protestant I don't see him as a symbol to be feared for Republicanism, I think he was an idiot for killing himself over a comparatively minor issue; I'm sure it strengthened Margaret Thatcher's resolve and the current situation undoubtedly came about despite, not because of, the actions of people like him.

So anyone who waved the image of Bobby Sands in my face would be wasting their time...

Just as anyone who celebrates killing catholics at the Boyne earns my contempt.

Thats what I'm going on about if the police are supposed to be stamping out secatrianism?

The council have the right to say no but they don't. I have no idea what the Orange would do, never heard of it happening. If Glaswegians have no idea around which time of the year the Walks happen, they deserve every right to be caught up. It's not one thing that happens every 10 years, it happens every year on a saturday before the 12th of July or around that date.

[endless psych]

Originally Posted by djtoast

Just as anyone who celebrates killing catholics at the Boyne earns my contempt.

For a start they would be (under current thinking) celebrating the wrong thing anyway.

The whole thing was originally tied up in Jacobean and the other ones (whose name escapes me) and both sides (it is now thought) had armies composed of both the Catholic and Protestant faiths. William of Orange had a Dutch contingent who were apparently fighting under a papal banner and I've always been told that the pope wanted William of Orange to win in order to quell tensions between Catholic states and protestent ones. (Although that could be bollocks)

[¡Punk!]

I think my quibble with the orange order, well one of mine, is it clearly isn't about being a protestant. My cousin tried to join and, because of his irish name, had to get birth certificates going all the way back to both his great-grandfathers and other such nonsense to prove there was no catholics in the family.

Seems to me if it's about celebrating one's faith then what difference does it make what your father, mother, grandparent, great-granparent or spouse believes/believed in.

The whole order seems bigoted from top to bottom. If they have their monthly meetings why not use them to educate the members about their own faith, other people's faiths and tolerance toward them.

The Orange Order aint all bad, does a lot of charity work for instance, and a large portion of my family were/are members. Even they admit it's got a nasty habit of ignoring any problems within it's ranks. As proud as certain members of my family are to protestant many of them weren't so proud to be assosciated with the Order that they joined in good faith.

[Warlord]

Originally Posted by endless psych

You see thats the problem with rationale for these sorts of things peoples reasons can change but when they look back they don't. (I dunno if I've put that very well). Bascially when people look back at the past they never look through the same eyes. So peoples memories are coloured and affected, altered most likely, by the person they are when they recall them.

Which is probably why people look back at things they did and think "Did I really do that?" or "What on Earth possesed me?" etc, etc.

Suppose, but it's how you feel when you do it. I felt pride when I marched but I'm supposedly going to Hell since I'm not "Heathen blood" and when I see a march I look back and remember that. Probably will but my dads still in the Orange so he still feels that pride.

[Rev Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by Warlord

If Glaswegians have no idea around which time of the year the Walks happen, they deserve every right to be caught up. It's not one thing that happens every 10 years, it happens every year on a saturday before the 12th of July or around that date.

The point is that we shouldn't have to avoid going out on the 12th of July, or on any of the weekends for months around it to avoid marches, mini-marches, warm-up marches, or other such excuses to distupt folk's lives.

You've still to give us a reason why the marches cannot take place in a private venue, or even a public venue as opposed to public streets where they adversely affect the rights of those of us not involved in the march to go about our lives.

And I never said that all of the folk lining the streets are footie-strip-wearing, booze-drinking sectarian-til-a-cop's-within-earshot tools.

Only, from experience, most.

Every time I've had to go through town when there's a march on, it honestly has been almost entirely gravel-voiced Glesga Wummin rasping abuse at some poor fucker on the other side of the road, or pissed-up thugs in Rangers tops swigging from Tennents cans or Buckfast bottles while yelling out either Sectarian songs, or just going "DA DA DAAAAA!" to the music as aggressively as they can whilst doing the arms-out Wanker Dance, even going so far on one occasion as to go nose-to-nose with passersby and holler their "DAAAA"s right into their faces.

Seriously, hire a stadium or something, piss off there and celebrate how proud you are to be Christian and British in there where you know for a fact that everyone there is also British, Christian and proud.
Then you won't have to suffer the disapproval of those pesky Catholics, atheists and other such irritations...

[djtoast]

Originally Posted by endless psych

For a start they would be (under current thinking) celebrating the wrong thing anyway.

The whole thing was originally tied up in Jacobean and the other ones (whose name escapes me) and both sides (it is now thought) had armies composed of both the Catholic and Protestant faiths. William of Orange had a Dutch contingent who were apparently fighting under a papal banner and I've always been told that the pope wanted William of Orange to win in order to quell tensions between Catholic states and protestent ones. (Although that could be bollocks)

I don't doubt your factual accuracy, but it may be lost on these guys:

[endless psych]

Originally Posted by djtoast

I don't doubt your factual accuracy, but it may be lost on these guys:

Aye, I looked back and wondered if it was worth quoting your post after I had put that in

In my defence I've been drinking and trying to work out why the Bass solo only plays once on "You can call me Al..."

[Warlord]

Skapey, anyone can march on the Queens road, or councils. You could even start a Star Wars one.