Rehabilitation - Page 3

fallen_nemesis · 27th March 2008, 1:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euronymous

Based on that, surely shooting them would be the most productive outcome? Its far cheaper than housing them for any amount of time, and removes all risk of them re-offending? Im not saying thats my view, but just against the "for all concerned" ideology.

right aye, totally.

"Queue up everyone that's ever commited a serious or violent crime. We're going to shoot you all in the head as you've been deemed beyond redemption...never mind the fact you stated you weren't guilty at your trial...and the whole time you've been in prison. Ho hum. It's cheaper to just shoot you than wait years and years for your retrial and appeal, and y'know, gets rid of you incase you did it anyway. "

This reminds me of kafka in the Penal Colony for some reason. You should give it a read

Quote:

Originally Posted by LesMTS

I like this idea of giving criminals jobs that are thematically linked to their crimes.
Why couldn't a rehabilitated murderer be given a job as a postman? Or a pie-maker? Or a waitress?

why stop there? He could have the job he always dreamed of. He's already shown he's cool under crisis and can kill. MI5 could prob use him.

sorry forum, I'm feeling particularly sarcastic this morning.

Posh · 27th March 2008, 1:25pm

Reading this thread is the 'going to the dentist' OF THE MIND.

Joe Spinebuster · 27th March 2008, 1:35pm

Fuck making someone into a "worthwhile" citizen... If you are a fully grown adult and do not realise that you don't just do what the hell you want to people, then you get taken out of ther equation. Simple as that. Put them in a net and throw them at the sun, Superman IV style. You call it "neanderthal", I call it a part of the survival isntinct and I also call it putting emotion before rational thinking. It's easy enough to sit in your ivory tower atop Morality Mountain and say that this way of thinking is wrong, and you sure have plenty of good points to back yourself up so I'm not saying it's 100% right or anything, but really it's so hard for me to believe there's anyone who wouldn't think like this if they were an actual victim of a serious crime.

In saying that, however, I would much rather shake the hand and pat the back of every rapist, muderer and paedophile on the planet than get into a discussion on the internet about morailty.

AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS · 27th March 2008, 1:42pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Spinebuster

It's easy enough to sit in your ivory tower atop Morality Mountain and say that this way of thinking is wrong

Making towers out of Ivory is un-moral!
Think of the elephants dew-d~!

I-RON-Y

**LesMTS** · 27th March 2008, 1:49pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Spinebuster

Fuck making someone into a "worthwhile" citizen... If you are a fully grown male and do not realise that you don't just do what the hell you want to people, then you get taken out of ther equation. Simple as that. Put them in a net and throw them at the sun, Superman IV style. You call it "neanderthal", I call it a part of the survival isntinct and I also call it putting emotion before rational thinking. It's easy enough to sit in your ivory tower atop Morality Mountain and say that this way of thinking is wrong, and you sure have plenty of good points to back yourself up so I'm not saying it's 100% right or anything, but really it's so hard for me to believe there's anyone who wouldn't think like this if they were an actual victim of a serious crime.

If I'm ever the victim of a serious crime, I'd hope I would be the last person who's consulted on the treatment of the offender.

endless psych · 27th March 2008, 1:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Spinebuster

Fuck making someone into a "worthwhile" citizen... If you are a fully grown male and do not realise that you don't just do what the hell you want to people, then you get taken out of ther equation. Simple as that.

What about the women?

Posh · 27th March 2008, 1:54pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Spinebuster

but really it's so hard for me to believe there's anyone who wouldn't think like this if they were an actual victim of a serious crime.

I can't find any links because, well, I haven't looked, but I read a while back about a group of victims of violent crimes who, despite their losses, were campaigning for the abolition of the death penalty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Spinebuster

I call it a part of the survival isntinct and I also call it putting emotion before rational thinking.

It's interesting that you assume not killing people is all brain and no heart. Why do you think they call us bleeding heart liberals?

All joking aside, I assure you I feel very strong emotions regarding the subject of state-sanctioned murder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Spinebuster

In saying that, however, I would much rather shake the hand and pat the back of every rapist, muderer and paedophile on the planet than get into a discussion on the internet about morailty.

TOO LATE!

Joe Spinebuster · 27th March 2008, 2:26pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LesMTS

If I'm ever the victim of a serious crime, I'd hope I would be the last person who's consulted on the treatment of the offender.

Well, the person who IS consulted on how to treat the offender surely must take not only the victim but also potential future victims into consideration? And the person making that decision actually IS one of those potential future victims, just like we all are in a world where rumbled murderers and rapists are simply allowed back on the streets after a wee while being told to sit in a corner think about what they've done. The person deciding on how to treat the offender has to consider if they want to put more lives at risk or not, and whether or not this person IS actually going to be "useful" or just walk out the exact same as they were when they walked in.
It's a scary enough world to live in knowing how many unknown criminals walk the streets, without also knowing that KNOWN criminals are being caught and given the "ahh, fuck it, on ye go and just don't do it again ya wee scamp" treatment. I'm not saying that it's impossible to rehabilitate some people, obviously some people commit crimes because they simply aren't properly schooled in what's socially acceptable and so can be taught if they want to learn, but some people just don't want to know. Some people have lived to an adult age fully aware of the accepted difference between right and wrong, but still ignore it anyway anyway. These people aren't gonna change, especially without the fear of death to convince them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by endless psych

What about the women?

I was rolling with a particular example of something or other that involved "males", then restructured it to be more general, and the two trains of thought had a horrific crash somewhere. Read "male" as "person" or "adult" or whatever, I'm sure you can figure it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Posh

I can't find any links because, well, I haven't looked, but I read a while back about a group of victims of violent crimes who, despite their losses, were campaigning for the abolition of the death penalty.

Fags.

**Ghostsuit** · 27th March 2008, 2:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetruemayhem

An eye for an eye will leave us all blind (or at least without depth perception).

t.

No! It will leave the victim of the original assault and the criminal blind (or at least without depth perception), don't you go exaggerating.

Personally I'm for a Escape from new york style island. If you choose to break society's laws "serious ones like murder" then off to the island with you and let you fend for yourself. Course it makes getting people back that weren't guilty a little tricky, but hey you got to break a few eggs making the omulette. - ok so perhaps I'm joking a little but I do think sentences are a little lame at times. I jsut read yesterday some guy stabbed a guy witha screwdriver, posed for photos with the corpse taken by his girlfriend and then pleaded guilty so only got 15 years, he'll be 35 when he get's out. I'm sorry but I can't see the justice in that for the family of the deceased.

Rehabilitation I agree with but I also think that there are some crimes where you should get life and I mean that as life till you die serving the community wither thats in some penal work place or something.

metallideth · 27th March 2008, 3:12pm

Three pages and no one's thought that maybe the reason the threadstarter's pissed off is because he got murdered by Varg Vikernes years ago?

Seriously though, I am very close to advocating the death penalty for anyone who genuinely believes prison is 'cushy'. Where's the evidence? It's not in the SPS reports, as far as I've been able to tell. The Howard League don't seem to have caught on to it either. Can't say I've found it in any other governmental or NGO reports at all. What the fuck does 'cushy' mean anyway, in sociological terms? I can only assume that someone's flipped their Mary-Whitehouse-o-meter into moral-indignation-overdrive, and decided that they've suddenly aquired all the answers.

Sometimes I wish I had no brains too.

Euronymous · 27th March 2008, 3:54pm

Who here said prison was cushy? We said the sentences were. And if you think losing 10 to 15 years of your life is a fair trade off for intentionally taking someones entire life, then you have acheived your wish of having "no brains too".

Quote:

Personally I'm for a Escape from new york style island

I agree. Problem is eventually it'll end up its own country like Australia.

thetruemayhem · 27th March 2008, 4:15pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostsuit

don't you go exaggerating.

Personally I'm for a Escape from new york style island. If you choose to break society's laws "serious ones like murder" then off to the island with you and let you fend for yourself. Course it makes getting people back that weren't guilty a little tricky, but hey you got to break a few eggs making the omulette. - ok so perhaps I'm joking a little but I do think sentences are a little lame at times. I jsut read yesterday some guy stabbed a guy witha screwdriver, posed for photos with the corpse taken by his girlfriend and then pleaded guilty so only got 15 years, he'll be 35 when he get's out. I'm sorry but I can't see the justice in that for the family of the deceased..

This is why neither you, nor john carpenter, are in politics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSR

a murderer could be given a job in the army as a front line troop, but could you trust him? an experienced drug smuggler could have flying/boating/technical skills - is there a demand for his skills in that particular sector?

You didn't watch 'Catch me if you can' the other night by any chance, did you?

t.

TSR · 27th March 2008, 4:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LesMTS

I like this idea of giving criminals jobs that are thematically linked to their crimes.
Why couldn't a rehabilitated murderer be given a job as a postman? Or a pie-maker? Or a waitress?

because law-abiding people can do those jobs easily enough, and there's currently un-employment

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetruemayhem

You didn't watch 'Catch me if you can' the other night by any chance, did you?

nope. don't get a tv signal atm

Euronymous · 27th March 2008, 4:34pm

The criminal in the end gets the job of catching people who commit his past crime.

metallideth · 27th March 2008, 4:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Euronymous

Who here said prison was cushy? We said the sentences were. And if you think losing 10 to 15 years of your life is a fair trade off for intentionally taking someones entire life, then you have acheived your wish of having "no brains too".

OK then, how can a sentence in its own right, i.e. a length of time, be 'cushy'? That makes hee haw sense. You could spend those 10-15 years in a prison cell, or floating around in outer space, or being forced to wank furiously at the back of a cinema...and so on, and so on, and so on. Punitive justice relates just as much, if not moreso, to how/where you spend your 'unfree' time as it does to how long that time lasts.

There's no such thing as a "fair trade off" for murder. Fairness is out the window. So you've got two ways to deal with it - take a step back, think about what the best course of action is on a social level, in terms of dealing with criminality...or do what you seem to be proposing, and just indulge the whims of whoever shouts loud enough.