BNP gains in London

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

Originally Posted by metallideth

True, but Scotland's never had a genuine problem with the far right in the way that other European countries have had. Even when Billy Fullerton was getting medals off the government for strike-breaking in the 20s he had next to no support outside Brigton.

Could be debated.
Theres definatly worse countries for it than us, but theres probably better too.

[endless psych]

Originally Posted by Hammer

We live in a democracy (well, in theory at any rate). If people start beating up the BNP for their views that puts them down to the same level as the BNP urging people to beat up people because of their skin colour.
Not to mention creating sympathy for them when they use it in their propganda.

Its doubtful that this is the reason people aren't getting involved. Its even more doubtful that the reason is that all these fans are actually racist I hasten to add.

Originally Posted by AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS

Could be debated.
Theres definatly worse countries for it than us, but theres probably better too.

Scotlands not entirely free from racism no, but facism pretty much I'd say.

[metallideth]

Originally Posted by endless psych

Being "working class" has become a fashion statement in terms of being a viable majority - well they probably only were that when they could call general strikes.

How d'you mean a fashion statement? As in people pretending they're working-class when they're not?

Viability was the concept I was trying to hit. With the decline of trade unions and other traditional working-class political 'outlets', communal representation of people who fall into the aforementioned group is in disarray. It reflects a more fractured working-class 'experience' in Britain now than there was, say, in the 1970s; perhaps it's even one of the causes of it.

There are plenty of bodies in Britain that can lay claim to being politically representative of various ethnic, religious or 'social' groups, but there isn't really one who represents the working-class. And like I said before, this is where grassroots comes into play, and this is where the BNP seem to be faring better (in some places) than the organised left.

[endless psych]

Originally Posted by metallideth

How d'you mean a fashion statement? As in people pretending they're working-class when they're not?

Well I'd say that working class is an outdated term that means absolutely nothing these days. People who aren't really working class consider themselves working class and people who are dont.

[metallideth]

Out-dated how? I've never understood this argument, entertain me.

[endless psych]

Well tell me what the working class is? How is the working class defined these days? Who are the working class?

As near as I can tell they don't exist in any real term other then people who decide they are working class.

[metallideth]

You could say the same about anyone who picks up a political label for themselves though - for example, not everyone who is "black" in terms of their ethnicity (apologies for the crude terms) is necessarily going to consider themselves "black" in political terms. Society at large, though, is far more likely to still treat them as politically "black" regardless of their views. The same applies to someone who is working-class.

It's easy to define what working-class is not - it's not 18 year old students at the university socialist group meeting talking about France 1968. Everyone at that age wants to be a prole because they want an equal stake in the impending revolution (hoho). It doesn't follow, though, that because of this there is no one in the UK who is economically "working-class". Put simply, if you are dependent on your physical labour, 'sold' to your employer for an hourly wage, then you are economically working-class, and will be treated as such by the powers-that-be.

[endless psych]

You see thats your construction of what working class is and isn't.

It also assumes that being working class is something that you can be said to be or not be. Which given traditional working class jobs and wage divisions aren't as clear cut or in some cases don't exist being working class becomes nothing more then a meanignless label.

Hell its even been deserted en-masse by the social scientists and replaced with socio-economic position.

[metallideth]

Well it's a widely accepted definition of what being politically/economically "working-class" means. I'm uncomfortable with this idea that there's a sliding scale of socio-economic position that everyone can happily move along should they choose to do so. The current nonsense at Grangemouth should make this very, very clear.

[endless psych]

Thats not what socio-economic positon is, there isn't nessecarily movement. But there is a scale and you'll find people who should be economically working class declaring themselves not to be and people who aren't declaring themselves to be.

Based upon the old definition of what working class is. Which these days equates to not much more then a state of mind.

[metallideth]

The whole issue of certain working-class people not having 'class consciousness' has been hopping around since Marx was beardless. I'm not really interested in skipping around Glasgow forcing people to draw their identity in broad brush-stroke terms, but it's not much of a stretch to argue that any person's identity is just as much what other people/institutions/circumstances invest in it as it is what that person wants it to be.