Israel enters Gaza (warning: some graphic content)

[0x21]

Originally Posted by supernothing

Gaza is nothing but highly populated civilian areas!

And thats why Hamas are firing into Israel from there...

Whilst what Israel is doing isn't ideal, I genuinely can't think of any other way to defend themself, and they can't really just ignore the problem. If people are being killed it is because of the Hamas rockets and not the Israeli retaliation. Hamas know that what they do will get people killed, and that the people have got no real option (other than to attack the Hamas rockets), and then use the fact that people have been killed to make Israel seem like the bad guys.

Of course neither side can be claimed as "good" or "innocent", but virtually all of the blame in this situation seems to be with Hamas. Good old extremists.

[endless psych]

Originally Posted by 0x21

And thats why Hamas are firing into Israel from there...

You miss the point, there is nowhere other then heavily populated areas in which to fire rockets...

Whilst what Israel is doing isn't ideal, I genuinely can't think of any other way to defend themself, and they can't really just ignore the problem. If people are being killed it is because of the Hamas rockets and not the Israeli retaliation. Hamas know that what they do will get people killed, and that the people have got no real option (other than to attack the Hamas rockets), and then use the fact that people have been killed to make Israel seem like the bad guys.

Israel came into being just after the second world war. To do so it had to displace a hell of a lot of Palestinians. Who now subsist on the fringes of a territory that had been their home and their ancestors homes for quite some considerable time before this. Israel controls most of the access to the Gaza strip and has, in the past (and probably now) deprived it of humanitarian aid and utilities.

Of course neither side can be claimed as "good" or "innocent", but virtually all of the blame in this situation seems to be with Hamas. Good old extremists.

A statement that probaby could not be further from the truth. Why are Hamas extremists? Consider how you might behave if forced from your home and forced to live with the rest of Scotlands population in Ayr or similar...

[0x21]

Originally Posted by endless psych

You miss the point, there is nowhere other then heavily populated areas in which to fire rockets...

IF that is the case, then the option of not firing on Israel and therefor endangering people didn't seem suitable to them? I really don't believe Hamas are the just ones, for want of a better term.

Israel came into being just after the second world war. To do so it had to displace a hell of a lot of Palestinians. Who now subsist on the fringes of a territory that had been their home and their ancestors homes for quite some considerable time before this. Israel controls most of the access to the Gaza strip and has, in the past (and probably now) deprived it of humanitarian aid and utilities.

I didn't say Israel was innocent in the whole thing either. I will admit to being largely innocent on the matter, and I'm deliberately not siding with anyone on this, I'm just saying it how I see it, rather than how the media are presenting it and how everyone assumes because Israel invaded Gaza that Israel is the instigators of this incident, which isn't the case.

I also doubt its as clear cut as you think, but I'd need to go away and do some reading into it before picking holes in your arguments

A statement that probaby could not be further from the truth. Why are Hamas extremists? Consider how you might behave if forced from your home and forced to live with the rest of Scotlands population in Ayr or similar...

Would I open fire on Glasgow from a populated area knowing that they'd retaliate and kill Ayrians? No I wouldn't. There must be plenty of things to do that don't result in civilian deaths.

[Kenny Everett]

Originally Posted by 0x21

Would I open fire on Glasgow from a populated area knowing that they'd retaliate and kill Ayrians? No I wouldn't. There must be plenty of things to do that don't result in civilian deaths.

When the revolution comes, you're on the subs bench son

[Semprini]

Originally Posted by 0x21

Hamas. Good old extremists.

Democratically elected government of the occupied territories, is what I think you meant to say.

[corky]

Ayrians.

[i_am_blip]

if someone slammed me into coatbridge and built a big fucking wall around me so i couldn't get back home i'd be lobbing bricks at everything.

[0x21]

Originally Posted by corky

Ayrians.

Yup, I can't think of anything better, but I'm sure the irony won't be lost on many people

[supernothing]

Originally Posted by 0x21

And thats why Hamas are firing into Israel from there...

Whilst what Israel is doing isn't ideal, I genuinely can't think of any other way to defend themself, and they can't really just ignore the problem. If people are being killed it is because of the Hamas rockets and not the Israeli retaliation. Hamas know that what they do will get people killed, and that the people have got no real option (other than to attack the Hamas rockets), and then use the fact that people have been killed to make Israel seem like the bad guys.

Of course neither side can be claimed as "good" or "innocent", but virtually all of the blame in this situation seems to be with Hamas. Good old extremists.

This is practically a verbatim reproduction of the Israeli propagandist I just saw on BBC news 24. And I was thinking "how the fuck do they really think they can convince the world that its not them - the people dropping all the bombs - that are to blame for the deaths of said bombs; but the other guys" - looks like its easier than i thought.

Originally Posted by 0x21

If people are being killed it is because of the Hamas rockets and not the Israeli retaliation.

Right, people ARE being killed, and the vast majority of them are Palestinian. They are being killed by Israeli bombs and shells, in thier homes, in market places, in mosques. They are being killed because of the Israeli retaliation. Thats a fact.

I understand the point; "what the fuck did Hamas THINK would happen?". That means that the Israeli retaliation is predictable - it doesn't mean that it is right or proportional or even effective. Thats whats getting mixed up here.
Previous to this stage of the conflict there had been a ceasefire: the conditions of which the Israelis were the first to break, there were attacks within the Gaza strip. Aside from that; they had already crippled Gaza with blockades - many people died because of these. The Hamas bottle rockets did not come out of the clear blue sky.

[djbarry]

Google 'Palestinian death toll' and the number is in the hundreds. Frighteningly, news reports decades old crop up with headlines like "Palestinian death toll triples this week", "Palestinian death toll mounts", "Children and civilian bystanders in Gaza death toll".

The Israelis shouldn't be there and should never have been given the territory in the first place.

[0x21]

Originally Posted by supernothing

This is practically a verbatim reproduction of the Israeli propagandist I just saw on BBC news 24. And I was thinking "how the fuck do they really think they can convince the world that its not them - the people dropping all the bombs - that are to blame for the deaths of said bombs; but the other guys" - looks like its easier than i thought.

I haven't seen the "propaganda" you are on about so can't comment. It is however a perfectly reasonable viewpoint, and people are coming to that conclusion

Right, people ARE being killed, and the vast majority of them are Palestinian. They are being killed by Israeli bombs and shells, in thier homes, in market places, in mosques. They are being killed because of the Israeli retaliation. Thats a fact.

I'm not contesting that, Israeli bombs are killing civilians, but because they have no other option - they are not trying to kill civilians but target rockets based in civilian areas. I'm hoping a ground invasion will be more effective (with less collateral damage) than bombing. The fact still remains that if the Israelis didn't have to retaliate / defend themselves, then people wouldn't be getting killed though, yes?

I understand the point; "what the fuck did Hamas THINK would happen?". That means that the Israeli retaliation is predictable - it doesn't mean that it is right or proportional or even effective. Thats whats getting mixed up here.
Previous to this stage of the conflict there had been a ceasefire: the conditions of which the Israelis were the first to break, there were attacks within the Gaza strip. Aside from that; they had already crippled Gaza with blockades - many people died because of these. The Hamas bottle rockets did not come out of the clear blue sky.

proportional? should Israel just match their casualties or should they try to eliminate the rocket threat? What should they be doing?
I also agree that its not particularly effective, but I can't see any alternative other than just letting the rockets continue.


Os an aside, I'm marginally cynical about the accuracy of most reports, after being told of a new report where a palestinian boy who was killed in a strike fell off his stretcher, and then climbed back on. There is a lot of propaganda on both sides.

[supernothing]

Originally Posted by 0x21

I'm just saying it how I see it, rather than how the media are presenting it and how everyone assumes because Israel invaded Gaza that Israel is the instigators of this incident, which isn't the case.

The media are in general very Pro-Israeli, due in part to jewish lobby groups, but also because the well oiled Israeli PR machine.

Would I open fire on Glasgow from a populated area knowing that they'd retaliate and kill Ayrians? No I wouldn't. There must be plenty of things to do that don't result in civilian deaths.

Perhaps you could appeal to the UN, where any motion against Israel is blocked by the US; or you could appeal to the EU, except they have you listed as a terrorist organisation and it's governments refuse to talk to you; or you could go to the Arab League, except they are crippled by infighting and corrupt governments protecting thier own interests.
As you wring your hands about the terrible situation you are in your people are dying due to lack of food, power and medicine; and the occupiers of your homeland are becoming more deeply entrenched.
Hamas aren't just hot headed arabs.

[supernothing]

Originally Posted by 0x21

proportional? should Israel just match their casualties or should they try to eliminate the rocket threat? What should they be doing?
I also agree that its not particularly effective, but I can't see any alternative other than just letting the rockets continue.

A small but important point being glossed over in the media coverage of this story is that the rocket fire from Hamas is hugely innefective. They have killed 2 people I think since the end of the ceasefire. Granted; having rockets fired at random into your country is undesireable - but they are shit rockets. More people die in the Gaza strip from want of essentials than from Hamas rockets.
What should they be doing? They should be sitting down with Hamas and making a deal for a new ceasefire. Small concesions like opening vital lifelines to the Gaza Strip, allowing food and medicine in, and a plan for (crazy as it may seen) actually resolving the Israeli-Palestine conflict in a manner where both sides make concessions and come to a compromise.

[LesMTS]

Ox21, let's imagine your family had a farm called 'Palestine', you had plenty of fertile land, livestock, space and resources. Your family's been there for centuries.
Then one day a group of rich landowners of the area arrive with a bunch of nomads, they kick you out of your farmhouse and move you into an old disused cowshed. The nomads get the house and a whole lot of guns to stop you thinking of asking for it back.
The new residents get the cream of the resources and let you have the scraps from the table or whatever you can find in the cowshed.
A few years later, the nomads, let's call them 'Israelis', decide they kinda like the cowshed so kick you out into the outdoor toilet. All ten of you. You protest, understandably angrily, that there's not enough food or space in the outhouse and you can't get access to medicine or sanitation. They respond by battering your bairns and building a barbed wire fence around your new toilet home.
Every so often they come down and kick your cunts in for the lulz.
Strangely, when you get angry about the situation, the rest of the town labels you 'extremists' and when they bulldoze your outhouse leaving you to live in a pile of bricks and shit, and restrict your access to medicine and water for chucking a couple of bricks through the farmhouse window, the rest of the town says 'shouldn't have been noising them up'.
You'd think the situation was pretty ludicrous, no?

[Pantgirl]

Originally Posted by corky

Ayrians.

Ayrsraelites

hmm not quite as catchy or Xenophobic sounding :/