Two soldiers shot dead inside their own barracks

[Jaemi]

There's lots to take into consideration though.
For example, the attitude to personal safety of those two soldiers.
Ordering a pizza could've been something they'd done a millions times before, so they were pretty lax when it came to it.
This in turn could've been the reason the RIRA chose this method of attack.

[Westy]

Aye I know the "alert" had been rasied a few days before it. Had any extra precautions been put into all the army bases? I doubt it. I don't think they knew the details like they did with Loughall. They didn't know where and when I reckon.

Turns oot the guys that got murdered were 21 and 23. Shame. Quite scary too. What with anyone who works for the British Forces being a target. From cooks to petrol station workers.

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

There's lots to take into consideration though.
For example, the attitude to personal safety of those two soldiers.
Ordering a pizza could've been something they'd done a millions times before, so they were pretty lax when it came to it.
This in turn could've been the reason the RIRA chose this method of attack.

Nobody will know as we only get the scraps of info that's immersed in state propogandha (i.e. 'the news').

The fact this happened 2 days after Hugh Orde said there was a need for more special branch to return to the occupied north, and the security level was raised (again, what for if they didnt know there was an imminent attack?) is too much like coincidence for my liking.

A couple of infantry are expendable to the government especially when it suits their long term agenda.

Aye I know the "alert" had been rasied a few days before it. Had any extra precautions been put into all the army bases? I doubt it. I don't think they knew the details like they did with Loughall. They didn't know where and when I reckon.

We don't know that though, and we never will.
I just don't believe it though.

Security at all national/state entities will have been upped.
Extra security, extra personell, more checks.
I mind it got raised in glasgow after the airport shite and even the DWP building I worked in had about 3 extra guards....this is a fuckin' army barracks.
What you're saying could've happened.
I find it very unlikely, though.

Turns oot the guys that got murdered were 21 and 23. Shame. Quite scary too. What with anyone who works for the British Forces being a target. From cooks to petrol station workers.

Aye, it's tragic loss of young life and I feel for the families..all mothers tears are the same, non are different....however they were days away from being deployed in afghanistan to carry out the UK's dirty illegal occupation of the afghan. This talk of 'to carry out humanitarian work" makes me fucking sick.

However, I cannot condone the attacks personally.

[Westy]

Hopefully it doesn't deter all the work thats been put into the situation over the years.

And obviously the alert being raised had been something to do with the bomb that had to be defused last month at the side of the road near an Army Base.

Shooting two young soldiers dead who were being handed pizza is just a little cowardly. I've always been a fan of people who work for the Armed Forces. They do the jobs, most of us don't want to do. I often feel too many people are forced into the Army life because they don't get oppertunites in other work industries and the Army is keen to use this to their advantage and exploit them. And they are the ones that suffer.

What you said "A couple of infantry are expendable to the government especially when it suits their long term agenda." I agree with that and thats awful.

[crazydiamond85]

tragic loss of life no doubt, but these sadly are the risks which are part of the job
especially when your involved in the occupation of foreign land.
It really would be a sad day to see the troubles return to Ulster, but honestly I just cant see it

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

And obviously the alert being raised had been something to do with the bomb that had to be defused last month at the side of the road near an Army Base.

It's not 'obvious' though, nothing's obvious that's the problem with state propogandha from the media, it's all you hear and read.

Shooting two young soldiers dead who were being handed pizza is just a little cowardly.

I can't condone the shooting of the pizza delivery guys, I think it's reeking of shite, crossfire or not, and I don't think armed struggle (at this time) is the way forward, but I resent the accusation of "cowardly" 100%, given the fact these boys were being sent to illegally occupy another country for the UK, one of many illegal occupations that has illegally killed 100's, nay, 1000's of unarmed civilians, involved invading far weaker countries, bulldozing houses, and plundering other countires resources.
These soldiers, regardless of age, are volunteering themselves for a foreign invasion and occupation for the UK's economic gain. I think it's hillarious to band the term 'cowards' about on this occasion.
Folk being ambushed is something that's part of every fuckin' war, more so when you are the 'wee guy' and are operating behind enemy lines, so to speak.

I've always been a fan of people who work for the Armed Forces. They do the jobs, most of us don't want to do. I often feel too many people are forced into the Army life because they don't get oppertunites in other work industries and the Army is keen to use this to their advantage and exploit them. And they are the ones that suffer.

I'd agree with you on feeling forced into it front. Support for the Brit forces is at an all time high because of the failing economy and recent 'terrorist' events across the water and in our own back yard. Britain has got it's wee bogeyman scapegoat and it's running with it...with high unemployment rate, the economy failing...it's of no coincidence you see more army adverts and more troops out in the streets nowadays than you've seen in your life time. They are actively stepping up recruiting drives because they know more folk sympathise with it. It's an attractive proposition - decent wage, steady job, and a chance to be a 'hero' when theres fuck all else available. This does not negate being blind in terms of what you're new job will entail for me.

We obviously have different views on the armed forces for this country Westy, so lets not drag out a huge debate about it.

What you said "A couple of infantry are expendable to the government especially when it suits their long term agenda." I agree with that and thats awful.

100's are expendable, they send them out to illegally occupied countries on a daliy basis to die fighting in an illegal war for state gain using the 'terrorist' as a scapegoat or reason to plunder everything.

[Westy]

@ CrazyDiamond.

What? Phoning a pizza and going to collect it is now a risk? The people who have carried out these attacks are lowlife coward scum.

"After the initial volley of gunfire the attackers then approached their victims, who were lying on the ground, and opened fire again."

They also fired into a wee crowd of people and injuried people who were not working or anyway related to the British Armed Forces. 4 others were seriously injuired including the guy delivering the pizza. Is that a risk which is "part of the job"?

"Pizza delivery man wanted - Good pay, must hold driving license. Oh aye, you will get shot at"

Take your excuses and ram them up yer arse mate.

And Chris aye. I agree with some of what you say. And we differ on some other things. I just thought this just seemed really not in the norm for what the IRA stood for and such.

I think we can band the term cowards about this time after you know, the shooting of 4 innocent people. I'd understand your point if they just went for the British Armed Forces but they have showed a disrespect to the general public by shooting without any regards and injurying 4 innocent people who were just simply going about their day.

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

What? Phoning a pizza and going to collect it is now a risk? The people who have carried out these attacks are lowlife coward scum.

You're opinion.

Were the troops and RUC cunts involved in the Loughall 'ambush' cowardly scum aswell then or is it only 'cowardly' when it's against Britain? Hmmmmmmm.

"After the initial volley of gunfire the attackers then approached their victims, who were lying on the ground, and opened fire again."

Yes, that's generally what happens when people are being assinated.
Locate target. Fire. Confirm kill.

Harsh reality. But it raises another point, how were these folk able to kill, ON an army barracks, walk up, confirm the kill, and leave? From a barracks FULL of personnel? Without being seen/chased/or caught.
Call me paranoid but....

They also fired into a wee crowd of people and injuried people who were not working or anyway related to the British Armed Forces. 4 others were seriously injuired including the guy delivering the pizza. Is that a risk which is "part of the job"?

Not at all mate, as I've said, I cannot condone the attack at all. I don't believe in their course of action one bit. I've already said as much. Did you miss it?

Take your excuses and ram them up yer arse mate.

I've not made any excuses, but I think calling it a "cowardly" attack is hillariously hypocritical - not by you, personally (unless you are defending the UK's actions abroad), but by the state. @Cowardly is a term that's being banded about the media (news/papers) so I'm guessing that's where you've picked this up from.

Settle down, and let's have a debate like a couple of normal people, is that possible?

HAHA NinjaEDIT: Just realised you're post was to CD. Therefore, read above if you wish, if not, disgard comments.

[Westy]

Aye mate, that bit wasn't aimed at you. The bit after the "take yer excuses and ram em up yer arse bit" was.

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

Also, don't think the troubles would return (however much it would suit the UK) but there will most definately be, as usual, a loyalist back lash.

[crazydiamond85]

what happened to the pizza delivery guys was disgusting and indeed cowardly. I couldnt agree more, and what theose soldiers did to protect them (according to talk sport today 1 of the soldeirs threw himself on one of them delivery guys) that has to be commended.
the point I'm getting at is simple, they are involved in an occupation of foreign landand just like in Iraq and Afghanistan they know the risks in being there
I'm not for one second saying these boys deserved to die, I am saying these are the risks involved with war and occupation.
Sad but true

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

Aye mate, that bit wasn't aimed at you. The bit after the "take yer excuses and ram em up yer arse bit" was.

Aye.
I'm not going to call it cowardly, as I don't know what exactly happened.
Could of been killed in the cross-fire...maybe the brits were involved/it was planned that way. We just don't know.
As I said, it's reekin' of shite either way...

No-one has released an official statement yet (RIRA) so until then I'm not even jumping to the conclusion it was them till I hear otherwise.

[Westy]

Aye like I said I'd get what youse are saying, had of it just been British Armed Forces involved. I might not agree with it but I understand what you are saying. The fact that theres been these 4 other innocent people involved means otherwise.

You can't do anything other than condemn this because of that. And I think that could be an even more costly mistake on the RIRA's part.

I don't think there was any "crossfire" at all as well. I'm sure I read that the Army did not open fire back because there was innocent people in their line of fire.

Aye, here it is.

The Army commander was asked why no fire had been returned from the base during the attack.

"Are you suggesting that people should have fired into a closely packed group including my five soldiers," he said.

"Both the guard service and the soldiers did everything that they could possibly do to save the lives of those who had been shot, including obviously the pizza delivery individuals, and I'm delighted by the way they responded but in no way surprised."

[AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS]

It will be a costly mistake, there's no doubt.
In my opinion it was planned that way. Orde had been building up to imminent attacks for weeks, with the culmination a couple of days prior to the attack. These organisations are choc full of touts, and they know that, so I can't fathom why it was followed through. Just seems daft?

That's why I think otherwise. It's just too lovely and neatly packaged for it to be really what happened in my opinion. It ticks every box on britains agenda. It fucks up 'normalisation', it gets public backing to get SAS/Special Forces back across the border, added with the 'innocents' side of it, and at a time when armed forces backing is at its highest (it's why you keep hearing "Heroes"/"Magnificent men" every time the soliders are even mentioned, by the way) it's always going to get mass public backing from the states people.

[Westy]

I agree. It does tick every box on this general "terrorist" attitude. It does seem awwfy daft of the RIRA. Aye. A bit too daft? Maybe.

Thats why I said "I just thought this just seemed really not in the norm for what the IRA stood for and such." a few posts back. I'd have thought, since that much time has passed since the last death, that'd the RIRA would not want people caught up in it. They have done more harm to themselves by doing this.