Organising a gig? Avoid this band! - Page 4

Yorgo · 5th February 2008, 12:56pm

The way I see it.

Pay to play works if you've got a big fan base, the band can MAKE money out of it.

I don't dig it though, the gigs I put in the crowbar are free entry and free to play, the band'll get free booze and a dinner but won't make any money, but they 100% won't lose anything either!!! The venue pay me a small amount to cover the cost of all the gear and a sound engineer for the night, and I like it that way!

If they ever decided to make every gig P2P, i'd probably back out, as I don't like fucking bands over.

G

MarkMono · 5th February 2008, 1:02pm

It can be effective in running your band as a business yes, saying that it 'works' is a bit disengenuous. Especially when many DIY promoters are so against the commodification of music and seek to separate money and music in as many ways as possible.

Mugging old ladies will make you money, but some would balk at the ethical implications.

JennyPiccolo · 5th February 2008, 1:13pm

I heard Kelvin owns Strawberry Fields now or whatever it's called.

I don't agree with most ways the music industry is run. I love organising gigs, but it's really stressful. I don't think it's that easy to do, but then i have managed to make a fair bit of cash from it. (for charity, but that's not really the point here.) Seeing the bands okay is always a first in my book though. Beers and a run home with the equipment the next day isn't that hard to organise.

I guess if you charge someone for the service you can expect a cancellation occasionally, like most other chargeable services.

I'd expect that if you're busting your ass for little gain, though, you'd like the bands you're working with to act as part of a team and actually make the effort to A) Show up and B) Make sure you're not actually losing money, time and effort in promoting them. It makes everyone look shite if there are only ten people at a gig.

Just speaking from my experience, but obviously the dynamics of promoting gigs for charity is different.

monkey star · 5th February 2008, 1:14pm

This thread is boring. Mark you where never interested in promoting shows (this is not a dig), you just liked playing and reading your book, plus every show I put on you got paid, as well as the other bands did. We all know pay to play is bad, we all know bands are idiots, so why do we constantly feel the need to chase our own tails.

PunyHumanPromo · 5th February 2008, 1:33pm

Our deals with local bands are dependent on our expenses on each show. When we say "bands are expected to sell X tickets" that doesn't mean that should they fail to do that, they'll have to pay out of their own pockets.

We have three main kinds of deals which we use on shows - 50/50 split after expenses, 100% after a set number of tickets and a straight guarantee. These are based on our expenses for venue hire, equipment hire, printing, promo, staff and running costs. Bands are free to choose a venue and a deal which suits them.

We strongly encourage bands to choose a show that's right for them. We run shows in a wide range of venues across Glasgow starting at just 120 capacity. We don't want bands playing to an empty hall. It's no good for the venue, for us or for the bands themselves. At the end of the day we've got a load of bands who regularly book gigs with us, all of whom are happy to work with us, and when we find a band we think are worth investing in then we help them out however we can, whether that's through support slots, gig swaps, whatever.

It's worth adding that we only ever ran 50/50 splits after expenses until bands started asking us for bigger shows. If everybody involved is happy with the deal they're getting then there's no issue.

Unfortunately it seems that Lifelords weren't worth our time. We've stated what happened and we still haven't had any kind of apology or excuse from them. We see no problem with labelling them for what they are and warning venues, promoters and bands not to work with them.

StuntGirl · 5th February 2008, 1:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by JennyPiccolo

I heard Kelvin owns Strawberry Fields now or whatever it's called

He half owns Ivory Black now, dont know who the other owner is but.

I think the slightly more professional means to resolve PHP's issues would be to stop the prissy bitching and take the band to court for breach of contract. There you go, everybody's happy. Having said that, £120 up front is fucking shocking, whats wrong with a nice civilised ticket split?

**djtoast** · 5th February 2008, 1:37pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosco

"Not so good man, i've had xyz cut off...."

are we talking, like, electricity, or, like, toes?

JennyPiccolo · 5th February 2008, 1:40pm

Hairs. Old metallers find shaving an emotional and distressing experience.

MarkMono · 5th February 2008, 1:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkey star

This thread is boring. Mark you where never interested in promoting shows (this is not a dig), you just liked playing and reading your book, plus every show I put on you got paid, as well as the other bands did. We all know pay to play is bad, we all know bands are idiots, so why do we constantly feel the need to chase our own tails.

I put together loads of shows for Witless Minion, Cell 13, and even Yer Maw for the first few years of the bands existence. Its actually kind of sad that your only experience of me is long after I'd lost interest in promoting Yer Maws shows and gradually lost interest in playing in the band altogether. I'd love to play in another band at the moment but I'm determined only to get involved with a band that I'm interested and motivated in actively promoting.

Rosco · 5th February 2008, 1:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtoast

are we talking, like, electricity, or, like, toes?

Haha, the first usually, i don't think it's ever got that extreme

Joe Spinebuster · 5th February 2008, 2:16pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkey star

This thread is boring. Mark you where never interested in promoting shows (this is not a dig), you just liked playing and reading your book, plus every show I put on you got paid, as well as the other bands did. We all know pay to play is bad, we all know bands are idiots, so why do we constantly feel the need to chase our own tails.

I obviously can't speak for the opinions of everyone in this thread, but in a general sense my own opinion on why pay-to-play continues to thrive in Glasgow is because no-one is really willing to step up to the plate and offer a rounded alternative for new bands looking for a fast and easy show to play. because, well, they CAN'T do this without losing money.
Yeah, there are plenty of "independent" local promoters, but the only way you can get a gig with them is to either be friends with them or fit into their niché specialist genre - eg Actions Speak Louder put on hadcore-related bands only, Puny Human tend to specialise in extreme metal, and so on and so forth. This isn't the fault of these promoters, of course, because they are just putting on shows for their own love of the music, and even if they WERE putting on a more general range of styles they'd lose money every time because there is no market for "gigs in general" in Glasgow. Music fans in and around this city listen to their one style of music, and if you want your gig to not be a total bust then you need to direct it at one particular crowd in order to be sure there will be any more than 5 people there.

So, if you're a new band and you don't really know anyone, or you play a style of music for which there is no niché promoter, what the hell can you do? You can put on your own show, but that takes time, money, a bit of pressure and probably a lot of trial and error before you really feel confident that you can put on your own show without something fucking up somewhere. So, you turn to a general purpose gig promoter, the only likes of which who put on shows on a regular basis in the city centre are Twisted Ape, Kingsonic, etc. Is it the right thing to do? Should the bands just man up and do the damn show themselves? Probably, but they won't because they can't afford it or just aren't informed enough to think they can do it. So, for lack of any other viable option, they bring in the crowds and they play their ass off, and they walk away with empty pockets while the promoter sits at home and waits for an underling to deliver his money.
Pay to play is also encouraged by the fact that the bigger promoters like CPL get all the touring bands that local groups want to support, and being a money-making organisation CPL will be looking for whatever bands they know will bring in big crowds for the main band. They often turn to the pay-to-play promoters for this info, because they know EXACTLY which bands can bring in the most dollaz at the door, and so a lot of local bands who know they can bring in big crowds will play pay-to-play gigs as a fast track to getting support slots.

So, that's but a few examples of the cracks in the structure of the local music scene that pay-to-play promoters are thriving on. I'm not saying they're "right", I'm just syaing that's how it is. How do we patch these cracks up? Fucked if I know. I think someone like Forbes has a great amount of potential for helping things along, though, and have always thought this. Forbes could put on an "ALTERNATIVE NATION GIG NIGHT" that hunners of folk would go to on a regular basis "JUST COZ IT'S THE FORUM", and check out whatever the fuck band is playing regardless of the style. There's a possibility for some really diverse, mixed bills without worrying that you aren't going to draw a crowd because you aren't targeting on particular market, without losing money. Word could spread that these are good nights out, like with the AltNation club night, and before you know it these gigs are swarming with random non-forumers turning up just for the sake of a night out.

¡Punk! · 5th February 2008, 2:24pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Spinebuster

Fucked if I know. I think someone like Forbes has a great amount of potential for helping things along, though, and have always thought this. Forbes could put on an "ALTERNATIVE NATION GIG NIGHT" that hunners of folk would go to on a regular basis "JUST COZ IT'S THE FORUM", and check out whatever the fuck band is playing regardless of the style. There's a possibility for some really diverse, mixed bills without worrying that you aren't going to draw a crowd because you aren't targeting on particular market, without losing money. Word could spread that these are good nights out, like with the AltNation club night, and before you know it these gigs are swarming with random non-forumers turning up just for the sake of a night out.

Get it done Forbes. Lev commands it!

monkey star · 5th February 2008, 2:27pm

Im pretty sure there have been altnation gigs in the past

AWESOMEUS MAXIMUS · 5th February 2008, 2:28pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PunyHumanPromo

Our deals with local bands are dependent on our expenses on each show. When we say "bands are expected to sell X tickets" that doesn't mean that should they fail to do that, they'll have to pay out of their own pockets.

We have three main kinds of deals which we use on shows - 50/50 split after expenses, 100% after a set number of tickets and a straight guarantee. These are based on our expenses for venue hire, equipment hire, printing, promo, staff and running costs. Bands are free to choose a venue and a deal which suits them.

We strongly encourage bands to choose a show that's right for them. We run shows in a wide range of venues across Glasgow starting at just 120 capacity. We don't want bands playing to an empty hall. It's no good for the venue, for us or for the bands themselves. At the end of the day we've got a load of bands who regularly book gigs with us, all of whom are happy to work with us, and when we find a band we think are worth investing in then we help them out however we can, whether that's through support slots, gig swaps, whatever.

It's worth adding that we only ever ran 50/50 splits after expenses until bands started asking us for bigger shows. If everybody involved is happy with the deal they're getting then there's no issue.

Unfortunately it seems that Lifelords weren't worth our time. We've stated what happened and we still haven't had any kind of apology or excuse from them. We see no problem with labelling them for what they are and warning venues, promoters and bands not to work with them.

lol @ 5 bands x £120 to cover "expenses" for the 13th Note (a free 120 capacity venue)

For promo (13th note provide it free on their website, and in their window, a few hundred flyers (next to no money), and then theres the fact that the bands are doing the promo for you (selling tickets/advertising to their best friends to come to YOUR show)

the only oppertunity you are offering here is bands to play to their mates (who arent interested in any of the other bands playing) thus, not getting any exposure or any other bullshit spin you are putting on it.

If theres such a queue of bands happy to work with you guys, then why do you charge bands money if they can't make the show (for whatever reason) 2 weeks prior to your show when you could easily just ask another band to play? Let me guess the hassle and the "running costs" of asking one of the many bands that love playing shows for you to fill in?

Lollercoaster.
Fuck this thread

black people steal cars.

Dec · 5th February 2008, 2:31pm

600 pap for doing fuck all, brilliant.