what does ballet mean?

[Campestral]

ah again! that's what i mean! when you say fill all the senses what do you mean? how can you fill them all at once? they happen only gradually so music came first as that's part of the cognitive mind and then came rythmn cause physicality came next so the use of the hands. ballet came later because it was more informed and therefore pretentious and almost needless. it has a function but it's surpless to our needs

[The_librarian]

but did it, dance, thus rythm then voice, then music seems to me to be just as veasable a way for it to have developed.

Why must music have come first, is that not the pretention that you seem to want to only place on other forms of art?

Ballet is just one form of dance remember, posibly the most formal, posibly not. The brief expossure that i have had to it, in the form of lessons, certainly showed me that it was at least as valid a way to express an emotion as any other way available to us.

Anyway I best get off to bed, I have a very personal day coming up, and need to make sure that I am prepared.

I look forward to continuing this discussion tomorrow.

[Campestral]

leornard says i will steal for you so sleep well and so long marryion woman and when you wake up you'll know i'm your mane

[djtoast]

I've seen quite a lot of dance, from Nigel Charnock's company, which can be very modern and surprising, to Giselle at Covent Garden (), Swan Lake at the Royal Festival Hall, to the dozens of musicals I've been involved with (and West Side Story is very pointedly balletic in places; Fiddler on the Roof has a ballet sequence for the daughter Chava, etc etc)

But I don't feel I understand much about ballet (or dance in general). As much as I can enjoy watching movement and interaction I don't feel like there's much communication with me... even less so than (say) looking at a Rothko, where I can examine my own response, try to imagine the artist's motivations etc. With dance I just find myself thinking, rather unintelligently, "that looks nice" and not much else.

I'm not sure that's a bad thing though! I don't have any idea how sculpture happens, but I recognise the beauty in the Venus de Milo; and indeed the same is true I suppose about beautiful people, I don't much care how their DNA caused them to look the way they do, it would almost be a sad thing to wonder how beauty was achieved and miss the moment as a consequence.

In this respect I wonder if dance differs from other art forms: you can read a poem for enjoyment or study it; in the latter case it's easy to pause and reflect at any stage, re-read sections... and the same's true of a CD of Beethoven. You could do that with a DVD of a ballet I suppose, but not so much with the actual performers, and I think maybe dance suffers the most by reduction to electronical form.

Hmmm, I never realised how little I knew about the subject til now

[Campestral]

what does pointedly balletic in fiddlers mean? and who is giselle in covete garden? i understand you maybe not knowing but you mentioned them as if they made sense to you and i want to know if ballet makes sense so say it

[djtoast]

I meant the dancing was "pointedly" balletic in West Side Story, not Fiddler on the Roof. There's a section specifically described as "Ballet Sequence" and I guess it's supposed to lend some grace and elegance and an impression of peace to the show to contrast with and emphasize the violence that goes before and afterwards.

Likewise the Chava ballet sequence in Fiddler on the Roof uses gentle movement to offset the turmoil Tevye is feeling in trying to decide his daughters' fate.

And a little less high-brow, in Oklahoma there's a section (far too long in the film version!) where Laurey is being tormented and pursued by Jud. It's actually a dream, and Laurey's dreamy and delicate ballet-inspired movement sits jarringly next to Jud's lumbering menace.

In each case, dance derived from ballet is being used to conjure up all the imagery we associate with ballet: females who are elegant but delicate, graceful but weak. Far from true of the dancers themselves I'm sure.

All three shows certainly have strong female characters so it's hard to accuse them of misogyny due to the stark contrast in the imagery of the dancing... but I do think that's present in ballet more often than not.

[Campestral]

yeah see! misogyny is prevalent! because women ballet dancers have slim bodies and guys want them to have them so it's nothing to do with art it's more a power trip. that is why my fave woman is grace kelly because she took control of guys with her mind and took the piss out of gene kelly even though he was a dancer guys do rule but we must remember who we're up against so ballet is pretentious

lol i've not seen fiddler on the roof but is that where the word chav comes from?

[blondie]

It sounds like your head is about to explode, Campestral.

I don't think you need to understand it as such to enjoy it. Maybe you should take yourself along to a ballet one evening and just see what you think. If you're not emotionally involved in it, hey ho, no big deal. Its totally different watching it from the stalls than it is watching it from your own living room.

[Campestral]

noone has actually convinced me why ballet works and i'm not sure anyone actually knows themselves. people made loads of noises about comparing it to the true arts but they never actually resolved their motives. the only person who came close was hammer and djtoast. i still think it's a base art and it's all about sex and sex is a very easy subject to anticipate so there is no art involved. or maybe pretentious people are so obsessed with sex that they think it's a joy to watch ballet. whereas a true afficionado knows that music is a much better place to be when sex is happening

[endless psych]

Originally Posted by Campestral

noone has actually convinced me why ballet works and i'm not sure anyone actually knows themselves.

Well it works because it can provoke an emotion or an appreciation... Just because it doesn't in you doesn't mean it doesn't work.

[bikuki]

Originally Posted by Brookie

also you end up with huge legs which i still stuck with

Amen to that!

[russianfaerie]

Originally Posted by Campestral

yeah see! misogyny is prevalent! because women ballet dancers have slim bodies and guys want them to have them so it's nothing to do with art it's more a power trip.

Originally Posted by Campestral

noone has actually convinced me why ballet works and i'm not sure anyone actually knows themselves.

i would never say its a powertrip that the woman have slim bodies, any idea how much work these people have to put in to be the best?the guys are pretty slim too, its just like how athletes are slim. so much work so yes they're not going to be fat, most work from a very young age.

why it works? people enjoy it also have different views on it just like you think its pretencious and i don't, no one is going to convince you otherwise on what you think i feel.

[Campestral]

ok my god we've had the discussion but please someone describe to me why ballet is better than music and if you would watch it without music and why?

[The_librarian]

No one said it was better than music, at least not that I can remember.

And yes I would and have watched ballet without music, as it is about the poise, power, and grace and how these combine, to convey the emotion of the scene.

[Campestral]

what scene?