With all the erudition of a drunken 15 year old......

[LesMTS]

"accepted science says something can't be made out of nothing"

Who says this? As far as I am aware there are myriad scientists perfectly prepared to believe you can get something from nothing, as long as we are talking about matter that is. The problem is defining what we actually mean by 'nothing'.

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted by TragicHero

No, I just said that life isn't an accident.

You are making me repeat myself. If something is not an accident, then it is deliberate. Deliberation requires intellect. Is it the "design" part that you take issue with, then?

Originally Posted by TragicHero

How the fuck did the universe get here?

I'm not saying god created it, I don't believe that. I even wonder what the point in creating it would be if you were god, killin' some time coz you're lonely?

But it was created nonetheless and since accepted science says something can't be made out of nothing I ask you to tell me how that something got there in the first place other then the fact that it was supposed to be there.

I don't pretend to know how the universe got here, I could tell you which theory sounds most plausible to me but I doubt that will help much. As for "accepted" science (accepted by whom exactly?), thats a bit of a red herring. Science is always changing, what is thought to be true today may tomorrow turn out to be hokum.

By the way, you're begging the question when you say "it was created nonetheless". I don't think it was created at all. At the end of the day there are only two possibilities:
(1) Something CAN be made out of nothing. In which case, why not the universe coming from nothing.
(2) Something CANNOT be made out of nothing. In which case, SOMETHING had to be here all along. In which case, why not assume the thing that was here all along, is the universe.

Also, its worth pointing out that how the universe got here has absolutely nothing to do with evolution. Perhaps this part might be better moved to a new thread.

Cheers!

[LesMTS]

I'm an armchair physicist but it's worth pointing out here that when you are talking about 'nothing' you are talking about there being no matter. The universe is the domain of matter but it is also home to other, very peculiar things which are hard to define or conceptualise - such as electromagnetic radiation, forces and 'energy' (whatever the fuck that is). The hypothesised 'big-bang' was the birth of matter, nobody says that before that there was NOTHING in the ABSOLUTE sense of the word but perhaps there were 'things' which can be defined only using the strange concepts of 'forces' and 'energy' and perhaps this utterly unimaginable environment is what lies outside the universe (the universe being defined, for these purposes, as the region containing matter). The thing that bends my head round and snaps it off then plays basketball with it before eating my brain, turding it out and setting fire to the turd is the fact that in this environment things like 'time' don't necessarily have to exist so we actually can't talk about 'before' the big bang because 'before' the big bang the concepts like 'before', 'after', 'now', 'then' may be absolutley irrelevant. If I was a 1950s American teenager I'd say "sheesh!".

Anyway, let's talk about Eastenders or Big Brother. I see Anthony won and he blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[TragicHero]

anyway, then the facts are:

1) one minute there wasn't any matter, next minute there was
2) at some point some of that matter combined to from something living
3) at another it became developed enough to question how it got to be there in the first place, and why one minute there wasn't any matter and the next minute there was.

If you want to believe that that just happened by chance and for no particular reason then thats your lookout.

I'm agnostic, but I think if our understanding of the universe in all its' dimensions was better so would our understanding of why we are here. There is more to the existence then what there is to see, hear, smell, touch and taste.

[LesMTS]

"There is more to the existence then what there is to see, hear, smell, touch and taste."

I agree. Electromagnetic radiation, neutrinos (incredibly unimaginable numbers of which pass right through your body every single second of every single day) are just a few examples.

However, I disagree with you jumping from these 'facts';

"1) one minute there wasn't any matter, next minute there was
2) at some point some of that matter combined to from something living
3) at another it became developed enough to question how it got to be there in the first place, and why one minute there wasn't any matter and the next minute there was."

to the conclusion that there has to have been a creator or creating force. It's a non sequitr. I'm not denying there was a creator or creating force, it's impossible to answer that question. I'm just saying that your three premises above in no way relate to your conclusion. It's like saying "fish exist so there must also be ghosts", the premise and it's conclusion are unrelated.
The reason some of the matter 'formed to combine something that was living' is due to certain properties of certain chemicals which also facilitated them forming countless millions of other 'things' which are not living, and things which are difficult to define as alive or not-alive (viruses, for example, are they just quirky objects or are they organisms?). Life, unfortunately, is just an interesting quirk of chemistry. I also don't think you can say that at ONE POINT life developed the ability to question it's origins, consciousness didn't develop overnight. The fact we CAN question our origins is not an indication of anything apart from very complicated neuroanatomy. Consciousness is an interesting but irrelevant side effect of the fact that we evolved as social animals and had a need to interact with others and, crucially, be able to predict the effect of our actions on others in our group. To do this as effectively as we do we need empathy, which requires personal insight which requires self awareness ergo consciousness.

[TragicHero]

Originally Posted by LesMTS

However, I disagree with you jumping from these 'facts' to the conclusion that there has to have been a creator or creating force.

Hey, I never said there has to be a creator or a creating force, you're the one jumping to conclusions, I already said I don't believe in God as such. All I said was that I don't think it happened by chance or coincidence for no reason.

[LesMTS]

Sorry, I'm not being aggressive! It's difficult to tell what kind of tone people are adopting when your communicating in text. So just to let you know that i'm not being aggressive and am just enjoying the debate.
I need to correct myself anyway cos I implied that you cannot 'see' electromagnetic radiation, an unbelievably stupid thing to say as visible light is electromagnetic radiation so, actually, electromagnetic radiation is the ONLY thing we can see! What a fucking dumbass I am.

[LesMTS]

Anyway, back to the debate. If it didn't 'happen by chance or coincidence just for no reason' then it must have been planned or there must have been intention, there is no way out of that. If there was planning and intention there must have been some kind of sentient entity planning and intending it. We, by social convention, call this entity God. So you do believe in God, by default. I'm not suggesting you believe in the biblical God but you clearly believe in a God.

[TragicHero]

yeah sorry, I didn't mean to come across as agressive either, it was just a rebuttal.

Anyway, all matter vibrates at a frequency, infact all everything vibrates as a frequency.
There are frequencies of colour that we cannot see, sound we cannot here etc.
I think there are probably things that are there that are at too low or high a frequeny for us to touch as well
When you tune in to one radio station the others don't stop playing you just can't hear them because you aren't tuned into them.

Scientists can tell you what part of your brain controls your feet, or your breathing or where your memories lie, but they're pretty baffled as to where exactly your "mind" or "consciousness" stems from.
It's not inconceivable that when we die our consciousness simply pops out into another frequency range.

[LesMTS]

Consciousness/'The Mind' is located in the cerebral cortex, I'll even reference that for you - Thompson, R F. (1985) The Brain. An Introduction to Neuroscience, Page 22

"There are frequencies of colour that we cannot see, sound we cannot here etc."
This is true, but it's not as mystical as you are making out. Colour is just electromagnetic radiation within the range of wavelengths which make up the visible spectrum. Different colours are different wavelengths, frequency is irrelevant as it depends on the speed the waves are travelling and all light moves at a constant speed. Visible colour is essentially the same thing as microwaves, x-rays, infra-red waves, radio waves, ultra-violet radiation etc the only difference is the wavelength.
There are frequencies of sound we cannot hear simply because the soundwaves don't carry enough energy to effectively affect the tiny hairs in our cochleas which tranform motion into electrical impulses in your nerves.

Also, you are right that all matter vibrates but this has absolutely NOTHING to do with colour. Colour, as I said, is electromagnetic radiation NOT matter.

Conciousness is a neurological quirk and does not operate using 'frequencies' in any way that is meaningful to the debate.

What happens to the consciousness of an Alzheimer's patient? Or someone with the very peculiar Capgras' syndrome? These are neurological pathologies which affect consciousness in very strange ways due to identifiable, specific damage to neurons, if consciousness was some kind of amorphous, abstract entity, some kind of vibrating, free-form, nebulous, independent agent then how do these conditions interact with it in a meaningful, predictable and terrible way?

[TragicHero]

Originally Posted by LesMTS

Anyway, back to the debate. If it didn't 'happen by chance or coincidence just for no reason' then it must have been planned or there must have been intention, there is no way out of that.

not so, you're theinking to latterally or like a human, there are things you can't conceive. The program can be a product of itself.

So you do believe in God, by default

nope, I don't believe that something else created me. I'm not thinking of the universe as having been created but as being created, moment by moment, like time is an illusion that is necessary for us to understand and percieve events as they occur.

Originally Posted by LesMTS

Blatant case in point - that "What the bleep do we know?" documentary/movie. Absolute SHITE.

You only find it shite because you can't conceive, understand or believe that you have any control over your reality.
However, I have had experiences which have led me to believe that I can be and have been. (and spoken to others who have had, and read of others who have had etc.)

[LesMTS]

The problem with that horrible horrible movie is that it is absolutley bursting with non-sequitrs and bastardisations of physics which they are passing off as science.
I'm not insulting you, I respect your opinions but the problem I have with your particular philosophy is that it is completely arbitrary. For example, say that we actually didn't know ANYTHING about the neurology of consciousness (just for argument's sake), then that doesn't make your theory about different, vibrating levels of reality in which consciousness resides any more valid. I, in your beliefs, could feasibly argue that our consciousness is located inside tiny green balloons on a giant revolving trumpet in space and our thoughts are transmitted from this odd world to our heads by millions of invisible, undetectable teleporting pixies. Nobody forms arguments like this because it sounds ludicrous, but it's just as feasible as what you are suggesting, what you have done is to pick and choose little bits of science that sound nice and mysterious and arbitrarily apply them to phenomena to which they are fundamentally unrelated.
As for that god-awful movie, this guy reviewing it put my opinion across a lot more succinctly than I ever could;
"The reason the movie angers me is because it is portrayed as a movie about quantum physics. The movie has almost nothing to do with quantum physics. They get a bunch of "Scientists" and cult nuts to ramble on about stuff they have no clue about. A significant portion of the information given is incorrect yet it is implied to be true. If the movie was marketed as the new age/pseudoscientific film it really is then I wouldn't be bothered as much. However, to claim this is a science film is insulting to anyone who knows anything about science. "
My thoughts exactly.

[LesMTS]

Basically, if you want to form an opinion of reality based on spurious, ad hoc reasoning then be my guest. Just don't call it science, don't even relate it to science, physics, quantum physics, cosmology, biology, geology don't mix it up with any of these things.

Again, please don't take me the wrong way. I'm not being aggressive.

There are so many fascinating, strange, wonderful and beautiful things ACTUALLY happening in the universe that it absolutley baffles me as to why people continue to just make shit up!

[LesMTS]

You want to go for a pint? It'd be an interesting pub conversation. You'd probably win the debate too cos I'd undoubtedly end up getting steaming and getting all my reasoning arse-over-tit and muddling up my facts.

[TragicHero]

Originally Posted by LesMTS

it sounds ludicrous, but it's just as feasible as what you are suggesting

It's not though, to people who believe in it instinctively or who have had experiences that seem to point towards or ratify that belief.

An Indian Holy Man, Aboriginal Person, Zulu Shamen

All over the world different ancient cultures had shared similar beliefs on the nature of reality, an indian holy man, an aboriginal person, a zulu shaman, a meditive work shop... all use different symbolism but the basic knowledge is the same. There was once a universal knowledge of this.
The information has systematically been destroyed throughout history, the British and Spanish Empires entering the Americas, and in Africa, the Romans invading Egypt and burning the libraries of alexandia etc., when the christians went romping around europe telling people to "convert or die", then the cruisades and most recently the destruction of Sumerian artifacts in Iraq...
...but what do I know, i'm just a crazy conspiracy theorist.