With all the erudition of a drunken 15 year old......

[LesMTS]

......George Walker Bush staggers blindfolded into the Creationism/Evolution non-debate;
BBC News -

"President George Bush has started a national debate in the US over the teaching of evolution in school.
The president has suggested that a theory known as "intelligent design" should be taught in the classroom.

It proposes that life is too complex to have developed through evolution, and an unseen power must have had a hand.

President Bush's championing of intelligent design will be interpreted as further evidence of the growing influence of the religious right.

The US president told newspaper reporters in Texas that children should be taught about intelligent design so they could better understand the debate about the origins of the universe.

Intelligent design differs from biblical creationism in that it is not tied to a literal interpretation of the biblical book of Genesis.

Nevertheless, intelligent design points to the role of a creator, and it has become increasingly influential in Christian circles.

Yet even those on the religious right, such as Republican Senator Rick Santorum, are cautious as to how it should be taught.

"I'm not comfortable with intelligent design being taught in the science classroom," he says.

"What we should be teaching are the problems and holes, and I think there are legitimate problems and holes in the theory of evolution."

There is no science to intelligent design, it's not even a scientifically answerable question

The debate, though, is already having a real impact.

In Kansas, the board of education has been re-evaluating the way evolution is taught - a sign that more conservative politicians and officials want to reflect the theory of intelligent design.

Many scientists insist, though, it is just that - a theory.

Alan Leshner, the chief executive of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, says that the proponents of intelligent design are "trying to cloak a religious concept in the mantle of science".

"There is no science to intelligent design, it's not even a scientifically answerable question," he says.

In 1925, the Scopes trial marked a defeat for creationists and opened the way for evolution to be taught in US classrooms.

Eighty years on, intelligent design is offering the creationists new comfort.

Once again, they are putting evolution on trial. "


What was that sound? Oh, it was just the era of enlightenment imploding. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the dark ages.

[Krocktopus]

I can feel my thumbs beginning to un-oppose

[LesMTS]

No you can't un-oppose them because they have never not been opposed! Don't you get it? Mankind didn't 'evolve' opposable thumbs, mankind was CREATED with them already opposed - around 12000 years ago, along with the dinosaurs, if I remember correctly - in God's image. Why God would need a complicated and fault-prone respiratory system is beyond me though, is he at the mercy of oxygen/carbon dioxide exchange too? Seems to me like an all powerful being wouldn't need to worry about such insignificant chemicals.

Maybe Kurt knew what was coming. That's why he blew his brains out. Not because he was depressed but because he anticipated that in a few years he wouldn't need them anyway.

PS. I meant 'erudition' in the title of this thread. D'oh!

[Krocktopus]

Are you sure God created Dinosaurs?
I thought he just buried lots of bones in the ground to test our faith.

And if you and I were created (as of course we were) in Gods image, then what are monkeys and apes etc?
They look like us, they have almost identical physiology (correct me if im wrong on that coz ur the expert), use bones as weapons near giant monoliths, live in comparable social groups and all that stuff. As they didn't evolve to be like that, as nothing has ever evolved for everything is controlled by an all powerful God, then what are they? some kind of prototype? a first go that didnt work as well? Either this all powerful God aint that powerful as he ( i dont like having to say he for God, surely such a being would transcend the bindings like gender) requires practice, which couldnt be true af a perfect being, or he/she/it is not as imaginative as he purports to be.

His followers are unimaginative sheep who dont have the courage and conviction to lead their own lives, decide things for themselves or let other people do their own thing, so why should we believe their god is any more creative with his time and abilities?

[djbarry]

Originally Posted by LesMTS

PS. I meant 'erudition' in the title of this thread. D'oh!

I fixed that for you

[LesMTS]

Thank you for fixing that!

Anyway, I want to ask God "What's with all the beetles?" There are many, many, many more species of beetle than there are ALL other species of ANIMAL put together. Did he go beetle crazy for a while? I love that quote from some famous zoologist whose name escapes me - "The only thing we know for certain about God is that he really loves beetles."
Regarding the apes, as far as I know, Andy, you're right - they do have almost identical physiology (and anatomy) as us. Regarding the social groups thing, Chimpanzee tribes have territorial disputes which are so complex and persistent that some argue they are comparable to a human 'war'. They will use complicated tactics, take prisoners from other groups, whom they will torture and kill and sometimes eat. So that fucks that hackneyed old saying that "humans are the only animals that kill their own kind blah blah blah i'm a fucking self-righteous, smarmy knob-end."

[TragicHero]

I think the idea that we are just "accidents" of evolution is also absurd.
The chances are equal to a tornado going through a junkyard and putting together a Boeing 747.
There are also fields of science such an Quantum Physics which offer a wealth of evidence against life being an accident.

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted by TragicHero

I think the idea that we are just "accidents" of evolution is also absurd.
The chances are equal to a tornado going through a junkyard and putting together a Boeing 747.
There are also fields of science such an Quantum Physics which offer a wealth of evidence against life being an accident.

You're entirely welcome to your opinion, but I think intelligent design is absurd.
The chances are astronomically small, its true, but then again the number of planets seem to be astronomically large, and the time frame is astronomically long, so I don't see why that matters at all.
I'd like you to tell us about what Quantum Physics has to say on the matter though, that sounds interesting.

Cheers!

[LesMTS]

"The chances are equal to a tornado going through a junkyard and putting together a Boeing 747"

Evolution, CATEGORICALLY, does not operate like this. It's a common argument and holds absolutley no water for various reasons. I'd also be impressed if you could offer me any serious argument or evidence against evolution stemming from quantum physics.
Back to the 747 argument;
First of all evolution proceeds in tiny, tiny increments - each a small and RANDOM improvement on the last. Their is no final 'plan'. In a proverbial 'nutshell', tiny genetic changes occur at random and if they are beneficial they are passed down through generations. Once the organism is 'genetically distinct' enough from it's ancestors we call it a new 'species'. The evidence for this is all around you, not least in your very badly designed body. Ever had back pain? We're not brilliantly put together for being bipeds. Ever had an allergy? When you're older you may have trouble pissing because (assuming you are male) your urethra passes through your prostate gland, which is subject to inflammation. Give me the name of one engineer who would design a system in which a collapsable tube (your urethra) passes through an inflatable component (your prostate). It's bad design. But that's because it wasn't designed.
If you even only have a general grounding in genetics, evolution, far from being 'absurd', is so obviously the case that it's hardly even worth considering any other argument.
Try reading 'The Blind Watchmaker' by Richard Dawkins. He takes the 747 argument and tears it into tiny pieces.

[LesMTS]

Infact, the 747 argument is even more blatantly silly than I first though. If evolutionists were arguing that one day man (or any complex life) just popped out of a swamp as if by magic then this argument would almost be valid. But nobody is arguing that, they are saying that over millions and millions of years we (and all life) developed from extremely primitive and simple entities, these entities are the things that formed randomly.
E-mail me your address - I'll send you my copy of 'The Blind Watchmaker'. I'm serious, e-mail me. w.l.j.ogilvie@dundee.ac.uk It's a shit hot book. Very concise and readable overview of evolution and why it is the ONLY thing that makes sense.

[djbarry]

After you have read 'The Blind Watchmaker' try and get a hold of 'The Language Of The Genes' by Steve Jones.

[TragicHero]

Originally Posted by UncleDave

You're entirely welcome to your opinion, but I think intelligent design is absurd.

Hey, don't be presumptuous, I didn't say I believe in intelligent design either!

evolution, far from being 'absurd'

Of course I believe in evolution, that is completely self evident. That doesn't mean that life is an "accident" though.

Originally Posted by UncleDave

I'd like you to tell us about what Quantum Physics has to say on the matter though, that sounds interesting.

Oh thats lengthy and I'm not aware of all the facts, it basically it showing that nothing is absolutely as it is and the scope of human perception is miniscule in comparison to eveything there is to be perceived. Quantum Physics is the study of the nature of reality... but I could talk for ages and ages about that.

There are astrophysicists pushing a theory that the equations for certain things that happen to celestial bodies, putting them in the places they are are "perfect" and not by chance. IE. The fact that life did evolve on this planet was necessary, not a freak coincidence. So many factors were of course involved, the right distance for the sun, the capture of the moon (I did a lot of reading about this and no one is really sure how the fuck the moon came to be orbiting round the earth, see my journal entry on it here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/varimademe/70655.html) And of course the inherant response to that is well, if it didn't happen we wouldn't be here to discuss it, this is an excellent argument, but we are here! So lets!

I'm going to do some more reading on it in the future.

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted by TragicHero

Hey, don't be presumptuous, I didn't say I believe in intelligent design either!Of course I believe in evolution, that is completely self evident. That doesn't mean that life is an "accident" though.

If something is not accidental, it is deliberate. I am guessing you're in the "guided evolution" camp if you think accidental evolution is absurd yet you still think evolution is correct. But Guided evolution is really just an unusual version of Intelligent Design. If I am mistaken then please, tell us what your opinion is.

Originally Posted by TragicHero

Oh thats lengthy and I'm not aware of all the facts, it basically it showing that nothing is absolutely as it is and the scope of human perception is miniscule in comparison to eveything there is to be perceived. Quantum Physics is the study of the nature of reality... but I could talk for ages and ages about that.

None of which suggests to me that Quantum Physics is at odds with the idea that life is an accident. If you don't want to get into it then fine, but you shouldn't have brought it up!

Originally Posted by TragicHero

There are astrophysicists pushing a theory that the equations for certain things that happen to celestial bodies, putting them in the places they are are "perfect" and not by chance. IE. The fact that life did evolve on this planet was necessary, not a freak coincidence. So many factors were of course involved, the right distance for the sun, the capture of the moon (I did a lot of reading about this and no one is really sure how the fuck the moon came to be orbiting round the earth, see my journal entry on it here: http://www.livejournal.com/users/varimademe/70655.html) And of course the inherant response to that is well, if it didn't happen we wouldn't be here to discuss it, this is an excellent argument, but we are here! So lets!

I'm going to do some more reading on it in the future.

I'm not sure how we can really discuss that. I mean, you put both sides of the argument quite succinctly, and since nobody knows the truth, anything we add would be nothing more than conjecture, would it not?

Cheers!

[LesMTS]

You've got to be careful where you tread with this 'nature of reality' stuff because some/most of the stuff that is out there purporting to be 'science' and 'quantum physics' is actually unmitigated garbage. Blatant case in point - that "What the bleep do we know?" documentary/movie. Absolute SHITE. 2 hours of dangerously ill-informed 'experts' opening their mouths and letting their bellies rumble.
I'd be interested in you referencing this 'perfect alignment of celestial bodies' thing because I don't believe you. Or at least I don't believe it's a credited proposal and is probably just one of the many peculiar hypotheses which are thrown around constantly almost in a kind of 'brainstorming session'.
Don't get me wrong, by the way, I'm not being antagonistic! Just thought i'd point that out as It's so difficult to infer tone in a text based discussion.
Also, I believe the overwhelmingly accepted theory of the origin of the moon is that it was a piece of the earth, broken off after collision with some massive object billions of years ago. One critical piece of evidence for this is the geology involved. Lunar rocks are very, very similair to rocks found in the mantle of the earth and the oxygen isotope ratio on the two bodies is very similar. There is also huge amounts of evidence of ancient magma oceans on the moon, only really explained by some kind of massive, violent event.
Furthermore, if you neither believe in intelligent design nor in life being an accident, what do you believe? Have you read Paul Davies 'The Mind of God'? I think you'd enjoy it. It's a fascinating book, he puts a very good case across for your point of view.

[TragicHero]

Originally Posted by UncleDave

If something is not accidental, it is deliberate. I am guessing you're in the "guided evolution" camp if you think accidental evolution is absurd yet you still think evolution is correct.

No, I just said that life isn't an accident.

None of which suggests to me that Quantum Physics is at odds with the idea that life is an accident. If you don't want to get into it then fine, but you shouldn't have brought it up!

No, I like discussing it but it's just such a huge bloody thing, you're better doing your own research.

I'm not sure how we can really discuss that. I mean, you put both sides of the argument quite succinctly, and since nobody knows the truth, anything we add would be nothing more than conjecture, would it not?

How the fuck did the universe get here?

I'm not saying god created it, I don't believe that. I even wonder what the point in creating it would be if you were god, killin' some time coz you're lonely?

But it was created nonetheless and since accepted science says something can't be made out of nothing I ask you to tell me how that something got there in the first place other then the fact that it was supposed to be there.