Is God evil?

ugolino · 9th September 2008, 12:53pm

Seems like an odd question, but I've been thinking about this ever since I read a thriller called "The Armageddon Conspiracy" by mike hockney in which a group of people plot to kill God. The book presents the Gnostic view of history and this amounts to a belief that the material world was created by an evil demon (Satan) for the purpose of entrapping souls. Since it says in the Bible that "God" created the earth then "God" must be Satan. The True God, meanwhile, lives in a spiritual paradise that has no connection with the earth. It's the task of a Gnostic to see reality as it really is and acquire the secret knowledge (gnosis) to allow his soul to be freed from its prison in this world and return to heaven.

The curious thing is that the "God" worshipped by Christians, Jews and Muslims is, according to the Gnostics, pure evil. Isn't it totally amazing that billions of people worship a God that some people believe to be the very quintessence of wickedness? Judging by some of the things that Christians, Jews and Muslims inflict on their fellow human beings (mass murder, torture, inquisition, suicide bombings, massacres, death camps etc), don't the Gnostics have a very good case?

One of the reaons that religion is so absurd is that it frequently allows the precise opposite views to be arrived at from precisely the same theological "facts". The Gnostics and the Christians both accept that "God" created the earth, but the former conclude that this was an act of supreme evil while the latter celebrate it as a great and glorious thing. Same "facts" - entirely different conclusions. Religion is plainly just a matter of interpretation, opinion and taste. There are no objective standards whatever. Some religions can actually contain diametrically opposed views...how is it possible for an extreme capitalist and an extreme left winger to both claim that they are good Christians obeying God's will? At least one must be wholly wrong.

In democratic terms, no religion on earth commands the allegiance of more than about 16% of the world's population (Catholic Christianity and non-Catholic Christianity must, of course, be considered as separate religions since they have precious little in common). So, whatever set of beliefs you choose to adopt, at least 84% of the world's population say you're wrong. Isn't it bizarre that people who trumpet the wonders of democracy, reject utterly the precepts of democracy in terms of religion? The democratic verdict regarding every religion is that it's wrong. In political terms, people are willing to accept the majority view. In religion, they reject it utterly. How weird!! Shouldn't the fact that no matter what religion they belong to, religious believers are in a tiny minority, cause them pause for thought and make them question their beliefs?

Dario · 9th September 2008, 1:08pm

God does indeed seem to be a most unpleasant fictional character. Much worse than 'Frank Booth' in "Blue Velvet", that's for sure.

Religious believers aren't in a tiny minority at all. There are a great many of them, and have an overwhelming amount of influence in certain political spheres today. Believers of one specific religion may not be, but even if they were, that wouldn't mean that they're necessarily right.
Also, most religion is inherently undemocratic because it requires everyone to unquestioningly subscribe to one doctrine of absolute truth, and dismisses any ideas which dwell outside of this absolutist world-view.

Joe Spinebuster · 9th September 2008, 5:33pm

The difference between right and wrong exists entirely in the human mind. If everyone in the world decided that it sucked to exist, then yeah I guess popular opinion might define him as being evil. But really if there's a God I imagine he would transcend good and evil, like The Powers That Be in Angel or whatever.

I think a wise poet summed up this discussion best:
"Is God just another cop, Waitin' to beat my ass if I don't go pop?" - Tupac Shakur.
Shit's deep.

Mature Student · 9th September 2008, 7:12pm

i go along with the theory that the devil is god and vice versa. we are condemmed by our own guilt in the end ?

Neil. · 9th September 2008, 7:15pm

Forger this thread, go ad watch the film about "god on trial" that was on bbc2 a few days ago and I assume on I player.

I basically plays the whole debate in tv drama form with some amazing performances.

Old Man · 9th September 2008, 7:35pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mature Student

i go along with the theory that the devil is god and vice versa. we are condemmed by our own guilt in the end ?

That's saved my ass then, Old Man guilt = nonexistent.
Omm

Elite · 9th September 2008, 8:00pm

not evil just made up!

guitarmankris · 9th September 2008, 9:07pm

Good/evil are subjective, and are only really determined by outcome (or hypothetical outcome) of the consequences of an act which could be viewed in a positive/negative (i.e. subjective) manner.

Some would say that good/eveil are purely deterministic, and are not in any way an innate property/facet of existence.

All this presupposes the existence of a creator, of course

Old Man · 10th September 2008, 4:24am

Big words, big words.
Omm

AdiChaos · 10th September 2008, 4:44am

hahaa high school flash back I'm sure that was one of my prelim questions.

Mature Student · 10th September 2008, 9:09am

" is evil something you are, or something you do ?"

perdiepirate · 30th November 2008, 6:42pm

actually Satan was an angel who feel from heaven - Satan is not God. God is formed from the Holy Trinity - the father, son and holy ghost.

depending of course on what you believe mankind created evil, God gave man freedom, but with boundaries 'we' chose to abuse this and thus this resulted in Adam and Eve being shunned from Edan into a world of crulety and suffering. I suppose in one respect you could argue that God placed the tree into the garden and thus God created evil, but we as humans always have a choice.

I personally don't think Gnostics has a good case. Most religions are founded on the basis of good and to do good and nearly all have some sense of punishment for wrong doing, even Satanism. I would also like to point out that is it not just "christians,jew and muslims" that inflict pain and suffering upon eachother in the name of religion, there are many other religions and social groups that do so - so single out the three is a bit narrow minded. id also like to point out that although in truth they are all the same God they are all represented in many different ways and names - due to their meaning.

Religion actually effects more people in the world than youre claiming too, there is a difference between faith and religion and nearly everyone has faith of some sort, which can inturn be influenced by religion, religion is found in most modern societies laws and social structure and therefore effects pretty much everyone - regardless to whether they are religious or not.

-brief opinion there, sorry if i seem abrupt but iv studied religion and for A level souly studied the bible - narrow minded people annoy me.

thats just the way i am

MarkMono · 30th November 2008, 6:48pm

I wouldn't worry about it, to some there is no distinction between faith and blind faith.

The apple parable never sat right with me though: Adam and Eve were the holy children of god, he is the closest thing they have to a father, right?

"Hey kids, don't you touch that ice cream I've conspicuously left sitting out on the kitchen table."

BAM!

"GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY HOUSE!"

Bit harsh, to say the least.

perdiepirate · 30th November 2008, 6:53pm

you have a fair point there. people who dont research what their claiming annoy me - i think its because a ive studied it and be im quite open minded and can weigh up two sides of an argument instead of presenting one x

Dario · 30th November 2008, 6:57pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by perdiepirate

actually Satan was an angel who feel from heaven - Satan is not God. God is formed from the Holy Trinity - the father, son and holy ghost.

I think he was referring to a Gnostic sect that believed that God was a malevolent being constantly toying tricks on humanity and that they were a vanguard who had to do good in the face of such opposition. Don't think they did refer to him as Satan, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by perdiepirate

depending of course on what you believe mankind created evil, God gave man freedom, but with boundaries 'we' chose to abuse this and thus this resulted in Adam and Eve being shunned from Edan into a world of crulety and suffering. I suppose in one respect you could argue that God placed the tree into the garden and thus God created evil, but we as humans always have a choice.

As far as that particular doctrine goes: you have the freedom to choose, so long as you make the 'right choice'. Well, that's not the same as freedom of choice; just the illusion of choice. It's something more akin to a threat, rather than an offer of 'freedom'.