NUS Referendum

[djtoast]

They definitely should be allowed to vote, not least because the fifty million life members the GUU is always claiming to have would agree with me and say a resounding "get tae fuck"

[Dec]

It's good to see that both sides of the argument are presented in a fair and balanced manner in this thread.

[endless psych]

Originally Posted by djtoast

They definitely should be allowed to vote, not least because the fifty million life members the GUU is always claiming to have would agree with me and say a resounding "get tae fuck"

Its an interesting problem that I don't think that the NUS will have considered given the particularly unique set up at Glasgow. IE the SRC and the two unions are essentially seperate bodies and not under the umbrella of one student association. As such for the SRC to go NUS (its acronym Krazy I tell thee!) it only needs a certain percentage of students to vote but for the unions concievably the life members could stop the unions joining...

(I also suspect only life members who felt strongly for a no vote would bother turning up to vote in such a thing)...

Which could put Glasgow Univeristy students in the potentially odd situation of having an NUS SRC and non NUS unions...

Of course my understanding of all this is based on reading the QM constitution and bye-laws many years again (oh and the blasted policy document ) at a time where I could more often be found drunkenly writing quiz questions...

[djtoast]

^ If you have a contrary opinion express it!

If only one side of the debate seems sensible in the minds of those who've posted here, why should they make up the opposing argument? Let someone who believes the NUS would benefit Glasgow students do so!

[Dec]

Originally Posted by djtoast

^ If you have a contrary opinion express it!

If only one side of the debate seems sensible in the minds of those who've posted here, why should they make up the opposing argument? Let someone who believes the NUS would benefit Glasgow students do so!

I was being facetious, from where I'm sitting joining the NUS seems like an awful idea. It'd be nice to see someone (who knows more about this shit than I do) playing devil's advocate but.

[djtoast]

I know, I was sort of agreeing with you: it's quite telling that no-one seems to want to advance the flip side of the matter.

[saffron]

I met some folk from the NUS last year and was not impressed. Joining up with the NUS would be like McDonaldisation of the unions. Both of them have their own unique atmospheres and a lot of fun to be. Mines is an emphatic no. If it does happen, I can see a cock up happening somewhere and my uni experience changing for the worst.

[triggerhappy]

I strongly oppose the affiliation of the University of Glasgow to the NUS, but since Dec wants a fair representation of both sides of the argument, here are the arguments from the NUS against claims made by the 'No' campaigners:

Originally Posted by www.yes2nus.com

1. They say NUS costs too much for what you get

There are a number of points to be made about the affiliation fee paid to NUS:

• The money does not come out of an individual student’s pocket. The union, like any other function of the college such as the library or the history department applies for financial support and receives a block grant from the institution. NUS subscriptions are a percentage of that grant.

• The affiliation fee is set annually by all students’ unions at NUS Conference.

• The affiliation fee has only risen by 3% (inflationary rise) in the last eight years. It will never be more than between 5.31% to 11.98% of the union’s block grant income. NUS is currently reviewing the system that we presently use to take into account the large fixed costs which some students’ unions have to pay.

• It is very dangerous for students’ unions to take a narrow view. Students need a national voice; students’ unions need the support of NUS information, research and development. NUS and students’ unions working together can press for improvement and change in the circumstances of students far better than any students’ union on its own.

• A very small proportion of the money paid to students’ unions goes to NUS. In 1981 funding was changed which could have led to the total amount of money given to students’ unions being cut by £3.8million. Extensive lobbying by NUS saw the money put back into the system. Without NUS, that money would have been lost with severe consequences for the services students’ unions provide to students. NUS has in the past saved students’ unions and students more than the actual cost of the affiliation fee.

• The Government Inquiry of 1989 into students’ unions and NUS stated that:

‘In general, however, unions make relatively small payments for services to NUS itself, though many unions said that they placed a very high value on advice from and on materials published by NUS in relation to their responsibilities for representing their members’ views and for welfare and counselling (including the provision of legal advice). Some estimated that without such advice and materials they would have to employ additional staff of their own.’

2. They say NUS is totally unrepresentative

This argument is often extended into the idea that NUS is out of touch with ‘ordinary’ students, whereas the opposition claims to have an automatic hotline to them. Let’s look at the facts:

• NUS represents colleges of every type - which in turn consist of students of all ages and backgrounds;

• NUS policy – the way it represents students – is agreed by an annual conference consisting of elected delegates from NUS affiliated unions. Delegates have to be elected by cross-campus ballot (in HE - the situation varies in some FE colleges);

• National Conference elects the NUS Executive and holds them to account. The National Council holds them accountable in between conferences;

• NUS has around 700 unions in the UK in membership, that represents 98% of all colleges in the post-16 sector;

• NUS cannot dictate to unions. It is up to each students’ union to decide its own policy. If students don’t like what’s being said on their behalf they’ll vote to change the policy. Students’ unions and NUS are what their members make them.

3. They say NUS discusses things that are not relevant to students

For each annual conference NUS runs a priority ballot. Every students’ union can submit any subject of concern as a motion for discussion. A list of all the motions received is then circulated by NUS to its constituent members (CMs) and voted on by them.

The three subjects that top the poll are discussed at conference. Emergency motions can also be submitted at the conference. A vote as to whether these should be discussed is taken by the elected conference delegates at the event.

Previous conferences have discussed a whole range of issues from student finance and education to sports, entertainments and modernising students’ unions.

4. They say NUS is undemocratic

The arguments here are related to points two and three that we looked at above. Often such an accusation is levelled by people who do not always get what they want out of a given situation. Democracy is defined as “government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives”. NUS, like students’ unions, is run by students, for students and its members have the opportunity to be involved at every level. Remember the following points:

• NUS is not a trade union. It is a confederation of independent students’ unions;

• NUS has no direct control or discipline over individual students or students’ unions;

• Cross campus ballots are compulsory for conference delegates from the HE sector;

• Elections for officers in students’ unions and NUS make up the largest annual voting exercise in the country. No other organisation has such a high participation in its democracy.

5. They say too much money is spent on staff

This claim is usually made in the same breath as ‘too much money is spent on campaigns’. What NUS opponents mean is they don’t want any money spent on NUS, either from a political point of view or out of self-interest.

Yes, NUS does spend a lot of money on staff. We need them to keep track of all the issues that affect students and to provide a decent service for the membership. Affiliation to NUS means that students’ unions have the right to use and consult NUS staff - effectively increasing your union’s staff by eighty.

NUS budgets and accounts are presented to Annual Conference and are overseen by an elected Finance Committee, including professionals, accountants and student members.

6. They say NUS is not effective and not taken seriously

Our opponents may claim this because NUS (they say) is not listened to, so any national lobbying is a waste of time and money. With any government, all gains are hard won, but they would not have been won without the united support of a national organisation.

• Our research on loans, housing and awards etc. is valued by many national groups and local organisations. Our Income and Expenditure Survey is the only credible source of information about students’ spending habits.

• MPs are realising that they ignore the power of the student vote at their peril. NUS’ campaigning work put tuition fees at the top of the political agenda at the last general election and we will be reminding them of broken promises at the next one.

• Our researchers are frequently consulted by Parliamentary, Civil Service and Funding Council working groups.

• NUS aims to put forward positive strategies on education. Our ideas are not always accepted immediately but they do permeate the thinking of other groups.

7. They say NUS is too political

This is a very wide statement. After all, what is politics? Any group or organisation that makes or adheres to policies is political. You can argue that politics affect everything a person does for the whole of their life. Claiming to reject politics is in itself a political statement.

For example, take your union budget. One group of students might want to spend money on a crèche. To some people that might be seen as ‘political’. Another group of students might want to buy some surf-boards, which they would say is ‘non-political’. One group may be given money at the expense of the other – the ‘politics’ cannot be avoided.

By attacking politics, opponents might mean party politics, and by that, not their own particular party. Students’ unions are about students deciding what they want, taking an active part in decisions. If you don’t like the government or local council you don’t withdraw from society, you try and change it. If you are saying what people want to hear, they’ll support you.

• Students have had to win the right to discuss all public issues and they succeeded in 1969. We should not throw away a right that groups in other countries are denied.

• Students have a tradition of debate – it’s part of our education and, after all, students’ unions do have an educational role.

• Students should not become remote from society as a whole, they are an integral part of it.

8. They say NUS spends too much time on international affairs

One of NUS’ founding principles, in the aftermath of the First World War, was a fundamental commitment to internationalism, through increased understanding and co-operation.

Not only is such internationalism important in terms of helping students throughout the world – where practical support from NUS has often eased difficult situations – but NUS also has well over 50,000 overseas students in membership, of which 6,000 are refugees. Well under 1% of NUS’ budget is spent on international affairs.

NUS’ international work has had a number of practical effects:-

• Helping Welfare Officers understand difficult situations when advising overseas students

• Playing an influential role in the development of the European Student Information Bureau (ESIB)

• Bringing extra money into the system for overseas students

• Giving NUS the research in the arguments against student loans, through our links with European, Nordic and American student organisations

• Playing a major role in securing the withdrawal of Barclays Bank from South Africa

• Leading to the setting up of numerous scholarships for those facing educational discrimination in their own country

• Improving our work on education, housing and women through seminars and information provided by the European Student Information Bureau

9. They say NUS is a ‘closed shop’

NUS does not operate a ‘closed shop’. There are two issues here:

• All students who enrol at a college automatically become members of the students’ union and then have a choice on whether they wish to opt out or not. They can take advantage of union facilities or not, in the same way that they can take advantage of the library or not. The choice is theirs.

• NUS does not have individual membership, but collective membership – its members are students’ unions. A students’ union decides whether or not to affiliate to, and gain the benefits of, the National Union.

In accordance with the Education Act 1994, there should be procedures for the review of affiliations to external organisations, under which students’ unions must submit the current list of affiliations for approval by members annually or more frequently. This does not mean they have to have a referendum every year – the act of including the affiliation fees in the annual accounts, which are approved by an AGM (or Council, depending on the structures), is sufficient.

Students who are dissatisfied with any affiliation can raise this and if there is enough support a ballot can be held on whether to continue the affiliation.

10. They say the NUS logo doesn’t lead to discounts

Although many students’ unions successfully negotiate discounts on a local level, students need a national voice to negotiate discounts with national companies. Individual students’ unions would have little chance of negotiating the vast range of discounts offered by many high street stores throughout the UK and abroad. Many students in NUS will be well aware of the massive range of discounts they can gain from nusonline and the amount it saves them.


11. They say NUS is financially irresponsible

It is students’ unions and Annual Conference that make the major decisions on NUS spending. Annual Conference votes on the accounts and estimates and sets affiliation fees. Annual Conference also decides what action will take place in the year ahead through the policy process or a ballot of students' unions. If students’ unions feel that a national demonstration is too expensive, then they can vote against it, either at Annual Conference or in the ballot of all students’ unions. NUS finances are also monitored by Finance Committee, made up of independent financial experts and members elected at Annual Conference.


12. They say NUS prevents freedom of speech

When they refer to freedom of speech they are actually referring to NUS’ no platform policy. The no platform policy exists to prevent racists, bigots and fascists from using NUS as a vehicle to incite racial hatred and intolerance of disadvantaged sections of society. The NUS constitution states that its aims should be pursued without regard to race, sex, sexual orientation, disability, ethnic origin, age or creed. It is only right that NUS should work to prevent discrimination against any disadvantaged section of society by denying a platform to racists, fascists and those who attempt to destroy those that the student movement has for decades fought to protect.


13. They say NUS is bogged down in political correctness

By political correctness they may be referring to campaigning on issues that effect women, black students, LGB students or disabled students. They may be referring to the fact that NUS tries not to hold events when people will be prevented from attending due to religious obligations. They may be referring to the fact that NUS asks delegates at events not to behave or use language in a way that discriminates against other people. Is NUS really bogged down in political correctness or is NUS striving to ensure that its events are open, accessible and comfortable for as many people as possible? Is NUS really bogged down in political correctness or is it striving to protect those who are disadvantaged and discriminated against by society?

14. They say NUS only pays lip service to the liberation campaigns

NUS has a proud tradition of not just representing disadvantaged sections of society, but promoting their self-organisation, rights and needs through the liberation campaigns. Very few representative organisations can boast a Women’s Officer, a Students with Disabilities Officer, two LGB Officers and a Black Students’ Officer on their National Executive, elected by their own conferences with autonomous policy making powers.

15. They say Scottish students aren’t in NUS

There are 65 colleges and universities in Scotland , and 57 of them are members of NUS. Edinburgh University Students’ Association recently voted to re-affiliate to NUS, after 25 years. All of NUS Scotland ’s demands were accepted by the Scottish Parliament’s Committee of Enquiry into Student Finance, despite the Scottish universities not affiliated to NUS saying NUS Scotland was asking for too much.
NUS Scotland has been the only student organisation invited to give evidence to meetings of Parliamentary Committees, the Cubie Committee and numerous Scottish Executive Committees.

And here is a fairly interesting article published in St. Andrew's University's 'Sinner':

Originally Posted by The Sinner

http://www.thesinner.net/article-view.php?article=193

Right. It's time to take a look at just how ridiculous the NUS actually is. This is my reply to Kev's earlier article about NUS, to clear up all the rumours, and to provide a single, detailed argument against joining the NUS. It's absolutely nothing to do with desperately procrastinating over exam revision. As always, I will use truth and the facts at hand. Unlike many (most?) hacks, I do not misrepresent or make false assertions. False assertions include claims of excellent NUS representation and democracy. The basic premise of the 'Yes' side is that joining NUS would increase the Students' Association's ability to represent students. The problem is that this flies in the face of the facts. In 1997, a nice fellow called Tony Blair decided that student grants were a bad idea. He also had a sudden change of mind and thought tuition fees were a good idea (despite pre-election promises...). Strangely, the National Union of Students agreed with him. Oops. Oh well, better luck next time.


Like 1999. In 1999, a majority of MSPs were elected to the Scottish Parliament on the basis of abolishing tuition fees. However, instead of pressing the matter, twelve months later NUS Scotland had meekly signed up to a policy of students paying tuition fees after graduation. In fact, they actually want all students to pay three years' worth of fees - £3,150 or so - regardless of their parental income, after graduation. This is beyond a joke. In fact, it's even beyond the Lib Dems, who only want to charge £2,000. Now NUS want this system extended to the whole United Kingdom. Only the late Lord Sutch could have produced something more bizarre.


This is the representation that NUS offers. If you want an extra £16,912 (didn't NUS originally say £13,000?) to be paid by an Association that only had a surplus of £37,219 in 1999/2000 (and that includes £55,060 gained in interest - by the way, that's largely from the million or so in the bank we plan to use to buy the Gateway building) for the privilege of arguing for you to pay even more fees, then by all means vote 'Yes'. Oh, and that's in addition to £4,000 or so in lost sponsorship to the Athletic Union, who are so short of cash at the moment that they've just launched a lottery.


If you think St Andrews could join and change all this, I wouldn't hold my breath. The 'internal democracy' of NUS, performed by delegates generally chosen in a similar way to the Debates Board of Ten (raise your hands both of you who can name who was just elected Debating Society Steward), would see the University of St Andrews having roughly the same number of votes in decision-making as the Further Education Colleges in Fife alone.
Anyway, St Andrews Students' Association has actually quite a good record in arguing for students at a national level. St Andrews, with Edinburgh, highlighted the anomaly of 'rest-of-UK' students paying fourth year fees - leading to their abolition. Maybe NUS should actually affiliate to us? Indeed, the arguments of the Ancient Universities (St Andrews, Edinburgh, Dundee, Glasgow, and Aberdeen) were mentioned more in the Scottish Parliament during the tuition fee controversy than the doubtlessly expensive NUS submission.


It is a simple fact that NUS representation, to put it crudely, sucks. That leaves one little argument that I'm surprised Kev Head did not make in his article - that of services for the Students' Association.
It's hardly surprising, though, as if the Association was to join the NUS commerical wing (do I sniff a greedy monopolist corporation in the air?), it would be an unmitigated disaster. Carlsberg, Stella Artois and Coca Cola would go from the Union - this is a harsh, blunt, inescapable fact. The 'Yes' side always mention Guinness because although it was banned, it has since been nice enough to NUS to be readmitted. Big deal. If the Union decides to stop stocking products, I would prefer that it be on the commercial needs of St Andrews, or on ethical grounds (Nestle!!!), rather than because of the whims of such a giant corporation with so many shareholders (yes, shareholders!). Some other people have been crass enough to suggest that NUS commercial membership would bring big bands to St Andrews. I thought about phoning someone at the University of Aberystwyth to ask how many "big bands" they'd had in the last few years, but the answer is pretty obvious. It's our size, folks - deal with it.


So I've saved the best until last. An assertion that NUS will make constantly from October 8th to 15th. An assertion that will be on every poster, in every speech and will be the first phrase any doorstepper will say.
"NUS Discounts".


Anyone who believes that NUS membership offers substantial extra discounts is allowing themselves to be deceived by the NUS lobby. Any company advertising a "student discount" that is not offered to St Andrews students (notice the key word - "students") is breaking advertising standards legislation. If a retail chain wants to target the student market, they want to target all students, not just NUS members. It must be conceded that there is a lack of awareness in certain shops of the validity of St Andrews matric cards, and a lack of understanding that St Andrews students will not have NUS cards, but take a look at your matric cards. Could you run a few thousand off in your garden shed? I doubt it (oh, and that's not an invitation to try). Just try asking - they are convincing. You might be surprised.


This whole argument is irrelevant to everyone who has bought travel using an ISIC card, as they already possess a card which has a high-enough profile to be readily accepted as student ID anywhere. Of course, in so doing, shops show that they are not offering NUS discounts, but student discounts. Game, set and match. Finally, while some universities are less enlightened than retail chains, refusing to allow St Andrews cardholders into their Unions, this is nothing to do with us - take it up with them. Our Students' Association makes every effort to establish reciprocal arrangements with every university in the United Kingdom. Those who reject our offers do so for petty reasons of their own choosing.


I want to end by making a request. When the referendum comes on October 15th, don't let the smoke and mirrors of NUS deceive you. They can't represent you, and they can't bribe you with discounts that you already have. Make an informed choice.
Say NO to NUS.
Marco Biagi.
Students' Representative Council Senior Officer.

There are a plethora of websites out there detailing the pros and cons of NUS affiliation. If you are at Glasgow University and have yet to make up your mind, it's a good idea to have a look at a few of these websites and of course keep an eye out for the official (and unofficial) booklets and publicity which will appear around campus over the coming weeks.

www.no2nus.com- a nationwide site run by students which has some intersting info on challenging the 'myths' of the NUS
www.yes2nus.com - an NUS run site which explains the purpose and activities of the NUS
www.no2nus.susu.org - the site for Southampton's No2NUS campaign
www.educationnet.org - a very pro-NUS student officers discussion forum (specific Glasgow University thread is here: http://www.educationet.org/messagebo...sts/87654.html)


Make your own mind up, but as a past president of the Queen Margaret Union and a past president of Northern Services (the buying consortium Glasgow University is currently part of and helped set up) I will wholeheartedly be voting

no
to NUS.

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by saffron

I met some folk from the NUS last year and was not impressed. Joining up with the NUS would be like McDonaldisation of the unions. Both of them have their own unique atmospheres and a lot of fun to be. Mines is an emphatic no. If it does happen, I can see a cock up happening somewhere and my uni experience changing for the worst.

Not quite. The Unions (i.e. The QMU, the GUU and GUSA) are currently and will remain independent bodies even if the NUS vote passes.

The affiliation vote will only govern whither or not the SRC affiliates to the NUS.

[Tait]

I think that in fact it would be illegal for the Union's not to consult the life members over a decision like this (that would involve at least one constitutional amendment), we are in fact not only a Student's Union but also private members clubs. There are certain legal precendents for things like this in other similar clubs so I think it's pretty clear cut that the several thousand life members between the GUU and QMU would, rightly, get a say over any potential NUSSL affiliation.

Also the previous poster is correct- this affiliation vote does not bind the Union's but makes it virtually impossible for us not to lose out financially and in terms of governance even if not immediatly.

Also to be frank, this issue is so important for students that I think it would be wrong for the Union's to stay quiet about the subject. They want to know where we stand- that this isnt good for the SRC, for the Unions but most importantly for our members- therefore we'll put everything we have into fighting it.

Cheers,

David Tait

[Tait]

Just to let you all know that the unofficial campaign website went live yesterday-->

http://www.glasgowsaysno.com

[the curiousity]

well, i'm looking forward to seeing what happens next week, i've barely seen a bit of 'yes' advertising anywhere.


i'm also loving the various board members of the QM (and wee cheesy)'s 'No to NUS' photos.

[djtoast]

Originally Posted by the curiousity

well, i'm looking forward to seeing what happens next week, i've barely seen a bit of 'yes' advertising anywhere.

I saw some posters stuck to the bins outside the QM, which led me to take this photo:

I call it "A Load of Rubbish."

(Sorry the quality is so bad, I took a photo of the screen of one camera with another camera so I could upload it!)

[Hammer]

Originally Posted by the curiousity

well, i'm looking forward to seeing what happens next week, i've barely seen a bit of 'yes' advertising anywhere.

Rumour has it that the NUS have boycotted the referendum because they view it as unfair. This is presumably regarding the 15% of students required to vote clause.

[spoonie]

"no to fees, debts and marketisation" those are the things that NUS are famed for tho!!

/x