Flu vaccinations

Foxglove · 6th October 2006, 1:34pm

My company has just sent out the annual invitation to have a flu vaccination. As we also get a bonus for not taking a sick day in the year (which is another issue and I can argue that this is a good and abad idea), I like that the company is trying to prevent anyone who chooses to take this invitation up from getting the flu - which is debilitating if you get it.

Anyone else who works - do you get offered a flu vaccination and what do you thik of the idea?

fallen_nemesis · 6th October 2006, 1:39pm

I still haven't been paid in my job yet let alone offered any health care

I think the idea's a fairly good one though, not for the no sick day bonus though, fair do's it would probably discourage people taking unecessary days off, but I think it descriminates against people with genuine reasons for taking days off.

Maybe I'm cynical, but obviously it's benefitting the company hugely - they cut down on sick days due to flu, and increase productivity as their workforce is generally a healthy one operating to its fullest as opposed to a load of flu ridden people not working so effectively.

I do question how beneficial it is for the employees though. It seems a bit mad to get a flu injection when you're perfectly healthy and hardly ever get the flu in the first place. Those who actually need it like OAP's and asthmatics are offered it free on the NHS anyway

hotblonde · 6th October 2006, 2:54pm

My cynical take on it - many people think they have the flu when in fact they have a cold or another viral infection with flu symptoms. The company you work for may well be trying to instill a "if you call in sick with flu, we can assume you a) have a cold and or b) you're at." Thereby assuming some control or power over absences from flu type illnesses rather than actual flu and leaving the employee vulnerable to their interpretation of that.

Also,the flu vaccination is based on a predicted strain, so if the flu strain that arrives is not the subtype anticipated, the vaccination is useless and relenza or other antivirals are the best or only course of action.

In principle, anyone who is succeptible to complications from flu infections - those with asthma, heavy smoker, elderly and diabetic should get vaccinated as it's better to safe than sorry. For a company to be offering this to workers? Mmmm...I think the employee has to decide if it is in their interests (not the employers) before making a decision.

nevali · 6th October 2006, 6:46pm

I'm approximately as cynical as Mrs hotblonde, there.

The ‘sick-free bonus’ thing is utterly ridiculous on several levels; it's tantamount to a pay cut for people who are off sick—just packaged up in a different way.

Zooropa · 6th October 2006, 7:02pm

As an NHS employee, I think we are offered it too.

There's a delay in getting it in Glasgow though. It may not be in all practices until January.

I didn't tell you that, though.

Pantgirl · 6th October 2006, 7:20pm

APparently, as a vet, i am supposed to get tetanus every 5 years...all doctors ignore this

Bobzilla · 6th October 2006, 7:30pm

My work only decided to give us the option because of the bird flu threat. If it wasnt for that we wouldnt even be thought about. The amount of Tamiflu that gets delivered to my work though is unreal. Well unreal in that I know as *cough*someone*cough* says glasgows running short but I can almost guarentee every month we get a huge shipment of it as we need to send it out to our offices overseas where our officers get it, their family gets it, the locally engaged staff get it and thier family as well. Thats quite a lot of folk considering we've got offices of some kind in about 200 countries

Mind you its bloody annoying when its got to sit under my desk for days on end because the couriers almost always refuse to send the medication because of the volume and we dont have the necessary papers for shipping the stuff. Cue the cases being stripped down so they'll take them in wee batches

Foxglove · 7th October 2006, 7:03am

I actually wasn't intending to get into the "bonus for no sick days" debate as it is an entirely separate issue and for which I have quite strong views (maybe another thread?).

I started this in wellbeing as it is simply about flu vaccinations and people's take on them being available free through work. It is entirely voluntary and there is absolutely no pressure to have them. It was one email saying they are available to anyone who wants to have one. I know a number of companies who offer this, but I am not entirely convinced it is necessary and wonder if giving the vaccine to people who are not vulnerable will actually just cause the flu to mutate (I am no expert and this is just a random thought) so that other strains become stronger?

stripey_kitten · 7th October 2006, 7:27am

My work offers it. I'm not getting it though, what with being the pregnant and all (I'm assuming this stops me getting it, but even if it didn't I have no desire to be injected with unnecessary stuff while carrying child). Even if I wasn't pregnant I probably wouldn't get it anyway as I'm not in one of the "at risk" groups. I'd rather doctors had more of the vaccine to give to "at risk" groups, than private companies buying them up to try and ensure their staff aren't off sick.

hotblonde · 7th October 2006, 12:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxglove

I actually wasn't intending to get into the "bonus for no sick days" debate as it is an entirely separate issue and for which I have quite strong views (maybe another thread?).

I started this in wellbeing as it is simply about flu vaccinations and people's take on them being available free through work. It is entirely voluntary and there is absolutely no pressure to have them. It was one email saying they are available to anyone who wants to have one. I know a number of companies who offer this, but I am not entirely convinced it is necessary and wonder if giving the vaccine to people who are not vulnerable will actually just cause the flu to mutate (I am no expert and this is just a random thought) so that other strains become stronger?

Influenza is a segmenented RNA virus - that is, the genome is made up of blocks of RNA. The reason there is a predicted vaccination program is that influenza (only prevalent in Europe from Oct-March each year) incubates in pigs and birds in Asia the rest of the year (as it is a zoonotic virus) and in doing so, the genome can mix and match with other strains/subtypes. This causes a 'shuffling' of the genome (like a deck of cards) and voila a new strain is born. It is technically referred to as genetic drift. It's not necessarily a mutation, however when for example a bird strain mixes with a human strain, the virion (complete virus) may acquire the ability to infect either species successfully. This is due to the neuraminidase + haemagluttin (this is the H and N part of the virus subtype), which allows receptor binding to a human cell.

This has occured several times, but to date there is no known recorded case of direct human-human transmission. The 'mixed' virus is not meant to infect humans or birds; it is not in a virus' interest to kill the host, as then it dies without further replication in a new host. a virus cannot think, but is subject to host/pathogen survival of the fittest.

Influenza antivirals (tamiflu, relenza, etc) work to inhibit the N part of N-H, so in actual fact if the strain is novel hybrid N-H avian-human strain, these generally won't work effectively either. As the vaccine created is based on predictions it will only be effective if it was created against said hybrid strain; vaccination programs will not do one jot of good unless targetted against the correct subtype in circulation.

When I completed the virology section of my MedSci degree (about 5 yrs ago) we were taught that there is very little actual chance of a flu pandemic with a avian-human hybrid strain. This doesn't mean it won't happen ever, it's just not that likely based on the nature of this virus. The media piss me off with the OTT nonsense and scare tactics used on the public - cliff notes, get a vaccine if you are vulnerable person, i.e. influenza will cause complications if you are infected. If the predictions are correct (recently, they are very good with strain predictions from Asia), then you'll be protected. There is no chance this procedure will allow the virus to mutate....influenza doesn't operate that way..it does all its socialising in swine and birdies.

I hope that eases your mind..oh and sorry for dumbing it down a bit

Foxglove · 7th October 2006, 4:30pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hotblonde

Influenza is a segmenented RNA virus - that is, the genome is made up of blocks of RNA. The reason there is a predicted vaccination program is that influenza (only prevalent in Europe from Oct-March each year) incubates in pigs and birds in Asia the rest of the year (as it is a zoonotic virus) and in doing so, the genome can mix and match with other strains/subtypes. This causes a 'shuffling' of the genome (like a deck of cards) and voila a new strain is born. It is technically referred to as genetic drift. It's not necessarily a mutation, however when for example a bird strain mixes with a human strain, the virion (complete virus) may acquire the ability to infect either species successfully. This is due to the neuraminidase + haemagluttin (this is the H and N part of the virus subtype), which allows receptor binding to a human cell.

This has occured several times, but to date there is no known recorded case of direct human-human transmission. The 'mixed' virus is not meant to infect humans or birds; it is not in a virus' interest to kill the host, as then it dies without further replication in a new host. a virus cannot think, but is subject to host/pathogen survival of the fittest.

Influenza antivirals (tamiflu, relenza, etc) work to inhibit the N part of N-H, so in actual fact if the strain is novel hybrid N-H avian-human strain, these generally won't work effectively either. As the vaccine created is based on predictions it will only be effective if it was created against said hybrid strain; vaccination programs will not do one jot of good unless targetted against the correct subtype in circulation.

When I completed the virology section of my MedSci degree (about 5 yrs ago) we were taught that there is very little actual chance of a flu pandemic with a avian-human hybrid strain. This doesn't mean it won't happen ever, it's just not that likely based on the nature of this virus. The media piss me off with the OTT nonsense and scare tactics used on the public - cliff notes, get a vaccine if you are vulnerable person, i.e. influenza will cause complications if you are infected. If the predictions are correct (recently, they are very good with strain predictions from Asia), then you'll be protected. There is no chance this procedure will allow the virus to mutate....influenza doesn't operate that way..it does all its socialising in swine and birdies.

I hope that eases your mind..oh and sorry for dumbing it down a bit

Dumbing down is good as I am not an expert in this matter - what you said was really interesting though.

Cheers

hotblonde · 7th October 2006, 5:22pm

It can be really difficult to give a brief summation of viruses..there are so many types - DNA single stranded, RNA single stranded, DNA double stranded, RNA double stranded, segmented, linear, etc.....There are loads of reasons why influenza is a scary pathogen apart from genome shuffling. RNA viruses are notorious for incorporating 'mistakes' into their sequence. In DNA based organisms, DNA is copied then a proof read and mistakes removed. RNA viruses don't possess this feature, so they tend make a lot of mistakes and as such are the most dangerous to humans (HIV, Ebola, etc).

Zoonotic viruses are even more of a problem as they can incubate in other animals and so are more difficult to eradicate simply by vaccination programs. Bact when I was a med student, polio was meant to be eradicated from the world by 2010, but I don't see that happening in the next 4yrs. Influenza is one of those viruses that will be around as long as a host is around for it to replicate in. Sometimes the best course of action is to stay away from crowds, don't travel abroad and wear masks in public (altho' viral particles can penetrate these as well in reality). A virus can travel the globe in under 2 days due to modern travel (mainly the crap, cheap form of air circulation in planes)..and they don't even need a passport

Flu isn't really that common as virus infections go..as I said, most people think they have the flu when they don't..you can be safe that between March till Oct, in this country, it's not the flu. Mainly children are the pathogen magnets, so adults tend to suffer less frequently...under 1yr olds are most at risk from complications. A G.P. will not take a sample and do a lab PCR to check, so even a doctor's diagnosis is not exact unless this is carried out.

If you do opt for the vaccination, it will make you feel a bit ropey for a few days and you should be safe from the strain the vaccine is targetted against, altho' I stress that this is not 100% guaranteed with any vaccine due to the unique human HLA system. On the other hand, if you don't get the vaccination, chances are you'll still will not be infected and if you are, you'll just be ill for a week or so. I think a new trivalent vaccine is currently being trialed in the UK. This is a dead virus vaccine instead of an attenuated (weakened but live) virus vaccine and is meant to have less side effects post vaccination and higher efficacy. I can check that out for you if you want?

I do apologise for the long windedness above...I just love talking about viruses and I don't care if that's sad. Also, there's not enough information out there regarding this virus and people are being scared for no bloody reason other than to sell papers and detract from whatever current political mess is going down at Westminster.

faerie_child · 7th October 2006, 5:34pm

i dont get anything like this from my work though they run a similar bonus scheme thing. less than 24hr absence in 6months (pro-ratad for p/t) and you get a bonus. given that most full timers work 13 hr shifts this isn't really fair. esp considering the absences include berevement leave and such like. the only things that dont count towards it are jury duty and holidays.

Foxglove · 7th October 2006, 5:34pm

Hey - go for it. It sounds like you love this kind of query and I am interested in what you have to say so we both win

hotblonde · 9th October 2006, 11:44am

OK, there's a few being trialled but that's all, they're not available for global use yet. There's an interesting study which looks at vaccinating children of school age (something that's been bandied about for a while, but not acted on) as this could prevent transmission due to herd immunity. It's a bit drastic tho', as these kids would need to be topped up every year and that's a lot to subject children (well anyone) to. Anyway, it's something the Japanese endorse and the USA is following with..it may only be a matter of a few years before the UK health officials decide this is the route to go down.

Back on to what you're asking about initially -
A study carried out in Italy last year (and just published) looked into the implementation of flu vaccine and beneficial effects in economic terms. It was a small study and should really be repeated over a few flu seasons however the main conclusions from stats showed that flu vaccination in healthy working adults did not reduce the rates of influenza-like-illness (of which there are many) and the difference between the average duration of disease in unvaccinated persons was not statistically significant. The incidence of actual flu was low in both groups and again not statistically different. In other words, the vaccination program in this setting had not benefit to employer or employee. Small study, but a basis for making a decision. If you want the paper, I can email it to you.